Wind droughts

[Jeroen Goudswaard + 61]

23 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Why do you people pretend that by typing HVDC, you solve anything?   It is at most ~2% more efficient over VERY long distances.  That is all it does in the grand scheme of things.  On a smaller scale you only have to run 2 wires instead of 3 and by using a dipole can in effect ~double the voltage for free, with the big negative that the end points of HVDC are very vulnerable and require multi millions of $$$ to connect to the AC system + the additional problem that for a dipole to work it has to be balanced load conditions at all times.   

Continent scale does not help you as there is this thing called WINTER, you have no solar/wind for weeks at a time across a continent in scale with small intermittent bursts of wind followed by another couple of weeks of NOTHING. 

 

Agree that HVDC is only marginally more efficient, but it allows for high capacity (so far up to 12 GW), very long distance and underground distribution. Networks do not need to be synchronized over the HVDC line. Hence, large power-system collapse is prevented, which is what e.g. happened in the USA north east in 2003. Winter storms do not affect HVDC either. Normal powerlines are limited to 500 km. HVDC is still efficient at 3000+ km. For a continent you need the latter

A well designed wind + solar system in Spain actually has constant output on a monthly basis. Wind peaks in winter, solar in summer. 

A well designed solar system in the southern states of the USA only varies 20% over the seasons. And except for the west coast, wind in the USA peaks in winter and dies down in summer. 

Of course there are periods of overcast and no wind. But not on a continental scale. 

[lexington green + 22]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:48 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

And we reprocess that waste which eats nearly all.  That using ancient garbage nuclear reactors.  Not breeder reactors which literally eat 95% of said "waste" leaving only short term products.  All that before we talk Thorium breeder reactors eating even more leaving even lower length products. 

If you were honest, you would be putting up $$$ to produce a breeder reactor to eat said "nuclear waste" if you were actually "environmentally conscious"

 

Well, dozens of waste sites, in multiple countries, came from somewhere.  If all waste were "edible" or nearly costless to eliminate, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  I'm neither pro nor anti-nuclear.   19 years ago, MIT produced a report: 'The Future of Nuclear Power':   'The nuclear power option will only be exercised, however, if the technology demonstrates better economics, improved safety, successful waste management, and low proliferation risk, and if public policies place a significant value on electricity production that does not produce CO2. Our study identifies the issues facing nuclear power and what might be done to overcome them.'

One new technology is Small Modular Reactor.  It is scalable, which means a plant can be built at a fraction of the cost of a larger facility, then scaled up in response to demand.  I imagine a lot of technology advances have occured since MIT produced their report.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, lexington green said:

 

Well, dozens of waste sites, in multiple countries, came from somewhere.  If all waste were "edible" or nearly costless to eliminate, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  I'm neither pro nor anti-nuclear.   19 years ago, MIT produced a report: 'The Future of Nuclear Power':   'The nuclear power option will only be exercised, however, if the technology demonstrates better economics, improved safety, successful waste management, and low proliferation risk, and if public policies place a significant value on electricity production that does not produce CO2. Our study identifies the issues facing nuclear power and what might be done to overcome them.'

One new technology is Small Modular Reactor.  It is scalable, which means a plant can be built at a fraction of the cost of a larger facility, then scaled up in response to demand.  I imagine a lot of technology advances have occured since MIT produced their report.

Give you a hint in life and how things work as you clearly are a dreamer with zero real life experience in the field:

No one is allowed to design nuclear reactors and build one without the government bureaucrats ignorant power hungry stupid shits in the way sign off on the smallest screw.  Therefore you have ignorant arrogant idiot stupid shits with a degree from idiot U who are anti nuclear greenpeace activists with a BS in humantitties in charge of all things nuclear.  They do not give one damn about power generated.  They do not give one shit about nuclear waste.  They do not give one shit about improved safety.  They do not give one shit about scalability/throttling/on-off potential.  All the stupid ignorant bureaucrat activists care about is KEEPING their jobs and the only way they KEEP their jobs is by fulfilling the NO PROLIFERATION portion.  No engineer is allowed close.  No physicist is allowed anywhere near. 

We already had the solution in the 60's/70's to the nuclear waste problem.  Liquid Fluoride salt breeder reactors.  But it breeds Plutonium, but eats it quickly along with all the daughter products except some very short lived ones with the longest was a Cesium one with a 70 year half life creating less than 5% the waste.  Would allow us to use 100% of all Uranium on earth, not just 0.03% of the  Uranium on earth and Thorium as well.  Oh yes, self regulating too due to how a low breeder works in both temperature and nucleation. 

It got axed naturally by stupid shit politicians when they were half a step from completion at Oakridge.   Military does not want them as it does not produce Fissile Uranium and the Plutonium was next to impossible to extract for making nuclear bombs(they did hope to use it for propulsion though but was not dual purpose). 

There is the basic reality of this world. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, Jeroen Goudswaard said:

Agree that HVDC is only marginally more efficient, but it allows for high capacity (so far up to 12 GW), very long distance and underground distribution. Networks do not need to be synchronized over the HVDC line. Hence, large power-system collapse is prevented, which is what e.g. happened in the USA north east in 2003. Winter storms do not affect HVDC either. Normal powerlines are limited to 500 km. HVDC is still efficient at 3000+ km. For a continent you need the latter

A well designed wind + solar system in Spain actually has constant output on a monthly basis. Wind peaks in winter, solar in summer. 

A well designed solar system in the southern states of the USA only varies 20% over the seasons. And except for the west coast, wind in the USA peaks in winter and dies down in summer. 

Of course there are periods of overcast and no wind. But not on a continental scale. 

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:15 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

Let us know when Europe has zero wind for a day let alone a fortnight?

The lowest  daily % contribution to generation I can find is 7% of Europes (thats the whole of Europe minus Russia and Potatostan) 

Daily Wind Power Numbers Archive | WindEurope

And this is just metered wind and takes no account of embedded wind which is probably adds another 10% to daily output. 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by NickW

[NickW + 2,714]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:15 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

you should offer your expertise to the Chinese

China Plans Mammoth Offshore Windfarm | OilPrice.com

[notsonice + 1,255]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:15 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

as Spain has NO WIND????? babble

 

add in solar in the US to wind  and you get power year round when you need it most......

wind on the great plains within 20 percent year round....... Enjoy

 

Solar peaks in the summer months when wind is at its lowest.........

Enjoy Enjoy

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

23 hours ago, NickW said:

Let us know when Europe has zero wind for a day let alone a fortnight?

The lowest  daily % contribution to generation I can find is 7% of Europes (thats the whole of Europe minus Russia and Potatostan) 

Daily Wind Power Numbers Archive | WindEurope

And this is just metered wind and takes no account of embedded wind which is probably adds another 10% to daily output. 

 

Ah, is your memory so short?  I gave you numbers for UK/Germany from their own sites giving hourly/daily/weekly information about a year ago. Not some so called windEurope site which does not show where they get their numbers from.

They both had WEEKS during the winter where they had ~5% and last I checked 7% is in effect zero. 

If you want your lights or EV car to charge 7% of the time... You go bro!

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Ah, is your memory so short?  I gave you numbers for UK/Germany from their own sites giving hourly/daily/weekly information about a year ago. Not some so called windEurope site which does not show where they get their numbers from.

They both had WEEKS during the winter where they had ~5% and last I checked 7% is in effect zero. 

If you want your lights or EV car to charge 7% of the time... You go bro!

Specific sites.

From Portugal to Finland, from Ireland to Greece daily contributions to the European grid haven't fallen below 7% in the last year. 

The data is aggregated from each countries declared figures. 

The last comment is a strawman because i made no argument that wind was providing all of Europes energy needs but simply refuting your no wind in the whole of Europe for 2 weeks hokum. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by NickW

[TailingsPond + 1,006]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

 

They both had WEEKS during the winter where they had ~5% and last I checked 7% is in effect zero. 

 

Haha, what epic nonsense.

 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

Specific sites.

From Portugal to Finland, from Ireland to Greece daily contributions to the European grid haven't fallen below 7% in the last year. 

The data is aggregated from each countries declared figures. 

The last comment is a strawman because i made no argument that wind was providing all of Europes energy needs but simply refuting your no wind in the whole of Europe for 2 weeks hokum. 

Its not 2 weeks.  It is 2 weeks followed by a little followed by another 2 weeks of next to nothing in January continent wide.  And the only places that count are in the North Sea/Baltic.  No one else can do wind as they do not HAVE wind. 

[NickW + 2,714]

13 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Its not 2 weeks.  It is 2 weeks followed by a little followed by another 2 weeks of next to nothing in January continent wide.  And the only places that count are in the North Sea/Baltic.  No one else can do wind as they do not HAVE wind. 

Meanwhile, in the real world

Map of European Wind Farms | British Business Energy

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

Meanwhile, in the real world

 

3 hours ago, NickW said:

Meanwhile, in the real world

At some point one needs to let go, obsession can be devastating. Your link portrays bountiful green generation yet a continent is now returning to a medieval state.

Welcome to Europe’s Dark, Cold Winter: Elements by Julian Lee

Replenishing storage and reducing demand still may not be enough.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-17/welcome-to-europe-s-dark-cold-winter-elements-by-julian-lee

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Eyes Wide Open

[NickW + 2,714]

14 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

At some point one needs to let go, obsession can be devastating. Your link portrays bountiful green generation yet a continent is now returning to a medieval state.

Welcome to Europe’s Dark, Cold Winter: Elements by Julian Lee

Replenishing storage and reducing demand still may not be enough.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-17/welcome-to-europe-s-dark-cold-winter-elements-by-julian-lee

 

The usual false  dichotomy ....... I'm not making any claim that wind alone can provide Europes electricity. 

However investment in renewables have halved the UK's gas requirements for electricity. Where would we have been relying on had we not made those investments I wonder? 

Edited October 25, 2022 by NickW

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Its not 2 weeks.  It is 2 weeks followed by a little followed by another 2 weeks of next to nothing in January continent wide.  And the only places that count are in the North Sea/Baltic.  No one else can do wind as they do not HAVE wind. 

Yesterday Coal and Lignite  met just 12% of Europes needs....your point is (in the context of a diversified supply source scenario) ? 

Here is a helpful link that gives data as recent as the previous day as to how much of Europes electricity needs are met by wind. Let us know when wind contribution drops to zero for an hour. I won't hold my breath waiting for the mythical '2 week' period you claim. 

Yesterday for example its lowest was around 20% at 5pm. 

Wind Power Numbers | WindEurope

[NickW + 2,714]

7 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

At some point one needs to let go, obsession can be devastating. Your link portrays bountiful green generation yet a continent is now returning to a medieval state.

Welcome to Europe’s Dark, Cold Winter: Elements by Julian Lee

Replenishing storage and reducing demand still may not be enough.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-17/welcome-to-europe-s-dark-cold-winter-elements-by-julian-lee

 

Thats because we are no longer using Russian gas in any appreciable quantities. 

Without renewables the situation would be far worse

And yes - Europe should have built more nuclear reactors over the last 20 years. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

Thats because we are no longer using Russian gas in any appreciable quantities. 

Without renewables the situation would be far worse

And yes - Europe should have built more nuclear reactors over the last 20 years. 

Wind power

Wind is a clean, free and abundant energy source used to generate electricity. Wind turbines work on a simple principle: the wind makes their blades spin, creating kinetic energy. A generator then converts this kinetic energy into electrical energy.

A wind farm is a group of wind turbines that can cover several square kilometres of land or sea to harness either onshore or offshore wind.

Continued improvements in manufacturing and turbine design combined with improved capacity factors (more MWh of electricity generated per MW of wind turbines installed; for example, thanks to more performant turbines and/or better localisation) have driven down the costs of wind power and reaffirmed its position as a key driver of the clean energy transition.

According to Eurostat, wind accounted for over one-third (36%) of the total electricity generated from renewable sources in the EU in 2020.

The wind sector is also a significant contributor to the EU economy, boosting growth and creating long-term sustainable jobs. According to Wind Europe, it provided between 240,000 and 300,000 jobs in the EU in 2020, of which about 62,000 were in the offshore wind industry.

https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/renewable-energy/onshore-wind-energy_en

[NickW + 2,714]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:15 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

Well apart from last year when it generated about 62 TWh from wind......

[specinho + 467]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:17 AM, notsonice said:

 

 

party popper.................... party pooper.............

a quick check on google shows 14 miles per hour ~ 22.5 km per hour....This wind speed turns turbines right?    .

 

[specinho + 467]

On 9/13/2022 at 1:48 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

And we reprocess that waste which eats nearly all.  That using ancient garbage nuclear reactors.  Not breeder reactors which literally eat 95% of said "waste" leaving only short term products.  All that before we talk Thorium breeder reactors eating even more leaving even lower length products. 

If you were honest, you would be putting up $$$ to produce a breeder reactor to eat said "nuclear waste" if you were actually "environmentally conscious"

pardon my ignorant................ just wondering over something i.e. half life of the starting material of a nuclear reactor e.g. uranium = 4.5 B years; thorium 14 B years.......... would a bit of those last hundreds or thousands of years in the reactor?    

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, specinho said:

 

party popper.................... party pooper.............

a quick check on google shows 14 miles per hour ~ 22.5 km per hour....This wind speed turns turbines right?    .

 

Yes

Cut in wind speed is usually around 3  M/S (10.5km/h). Production tops out at 8-12 M/S second depending on model. 

2mw-platform | GE Renewable Energy

Also bear in mind the wind turbines will be a lot higher up than the monitoring stations for local wind speeds - this is why they normally put up a test tower before building a farm. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:42 PM, NickW said:

Meanwhile, in the real world

Map of European Wind Farms | British Business Energy

Let me know how many of those were built WITHOUT government subsidy.  Oh right: Zero of them. 

Yes, politico power hungry douche's can idiotically place government subsidized whirly fans all over the place in the name of energy independence.   Economics are nowhere to be found.

[Jeroen Goudswaard + 61]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:29 AM, Jeroen Goudswaard said:

HVDC is only marginally more efficient, but it allows for high capacity (so far up to 12 GW), very long distance and underground distribution. Networks do not need to be synchronized over the HVDC line. Hence, large power-system collapse is prevented, which is what e.g. happened in the USA north east in 2003. Winter storms do not affect HVDC either. Normal powerlines are limited to 500 km. HVDC is still efficient at 3000+ km. For a continent you need the latter

A well designed wind + solar system in Spain actually has constant output on a monthly basis. Wind peaks in winter, solar in summer. 

A well designed solar system in the southern stat

On 10/5/2022 at 1:15 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, you make a good parrot of stupidity spouted by the ignorance of others. 

No, solar does not vary by 20% in Southern USA.  It varies by over 50%

No,, a well designed solar+wind in Spain does not output constant as Spain has NO WIND.

HVDC has to be balanced end to end unlike AC and is far worse to use creating said collapse.  It is even worse if you are going for a ring dipole solution.  No, normal power lines are not limited to 500km, where the Fuck do you get this Bull Shit?  There are 2000km long AC power lines.  Like HVDC they go to higher voltages.  HVDC is simply better as with dipole you get for free double the effective voltage and therefore double the power allowing smaller conductors and with only 2 conductors. 

Wind in winter... What crap, Like Europe, the whole continent goes into ZERO wind for 2 weeks or longer every time a winter high rolls in.  USA, like EUR has lots of wind in SPRING and FALL less in the winter and less yet in summer. 

Dude, whoever you are listening to?  Ignore them, they are morons with ZERO  experience or just spouting complete lies.  It is making you look REALLY stupid.

es of the USA only varies 20% over the seasons. And except for the west coast, wind in the USA pea

Hey man, 

You're a dreadful reader.

- Solar varies by 50%, yes. But a well-designed solar system does not. Just optimize for winter sun, and there you go.

You don't know geography.

- Spain has no wind. Ah well, Gulf of Biscay anyone?

You can't Google

The longest UHVAC line is 640 km and has two substations and a switching station. That is technically not even a single AC line. 

You have absolutely no idea about wind.

Wind energy output in the North Sea is highest in winter and lowest in summer. By a factor of two. Peak wind is February.

 

[NickW + 2,714]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Let me know how many of those were built WITHOUT government subsidy.  Oh right: Zero of them. 

Yes, politico power hungry douche's can idiotically place government subsidized whirly fans all over the place in the name of energy independence.   Economics are nowhere to be found.

Completely irrelevant to the point being made but hey ho....

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, Jeroen Goudswaard said:

Hey man, 

You're a dreadful reader.

- Solar varies by 50%, yes. But a well-designed solar system does not. Just optimize for winter sun, and there you go.

You don't know geography.

- Spain has no wind. Ah well, Gulf of Biscay anyone?

You can't Google

The longest UHVAC line is 640 km and has two substations and a switching station. That is technically not even a single AC line. 

You have absolutely no idea about wind.

Wind energy output in the North Sea is highest in winter and lowest in summer. By a factor of two. Peak wind is February.

 

No wind Spain