Ron Wagner

The Army Corp of Engineers is Considering sending Water from the Mississippi to the Southwest

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https://news.yahoo.com/time-army-corps-engineers-investigate-130023576.html

It's time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate the feasibility of moving water West

 
 
Don Siefkes
Sat, July 30, 2022 at 8:00 AM
 
 
The Old River Control Structure regulates the flow of water leaving the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya River in Vidalia, Louisiana.
 
The Old River Control Structure regulates the flow of water leaving the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya River in Vidalia, Louisiana.

Numerous letters (including mine of June 30) have commented recently on the possibility of moving water from the Mississippi River to the Colorado River at Lake Powell (Glen Canyon dam on the Utah/Colorado border) and then downstream to Lake Mead (Hoover Dam/Las Vegas) and on through Arizona and beyond. Some of these letters are supportive and some not. The whole point of suggesting this solution to the Southwest’s water problem is to generate a public demand to the Army Corps of Engineers to investigate the feasibility of such a project.

I suggested diverting 250,000 gallons/second, which is only about 5% of the flow on the lower Mississippi south of the Old River Control Structure (ORCS) in Central Louisiana 300 miles above New Orleans. This water does nothing except flow out into the Gulf of Mexico. It generates no electricity and doesn’t help commercial shipping or recreational boating. It only causes flooding problems in New Orleans. No state above the OCRS would suffer any loss of water.

If 250,000 gals/sec is impractical, have the Corps consider a flow of 125,000 gals/sec (only 2.5% of the downriver flow), which would take two to three years to fill Lakes Powell and Mead. This is a rather rapid and reasonable time frame to solve the water problems of the Southwest.

- ADVERTISEMENT -

The reason the Old River Control Structure is so important is that it already has the infrastructure used since the 1950s to currently divert 30% of the southbound flow of the Mississippi above the OCRS over to the Atchafalaya River in Louisiana and down to the Gulf of Mexico. No further investment in building a diversion system would be needed. All you need is a big concrete-lined ditch to go to the Colorado River.

Yes, this would require massive pumping stations to lift the water up the Continental Divide at some point (the lowest lift would be 4,000 feet in Campbell, New Mexico, close to Albuquerque), but then it would be all downhill using gravity to Lake Powell or somewhere else on the Colorado above the Glen Canyon Dam. One writer suggested a series of windmills to generate the electricity, but, of course, you would need holding basins for those times when the wind isn’t blowing. That would be the Corps’ job to figure out exactly how to generate the electricity.

The California Aqueduct from Sacramento to Los Angeles (average 110 feet wide x 30 feet deep) has a capacity of about 100,000 gals/sec. The Edmonston pumping station at the south end of the California Aqueduct lifts that water up 2,000 feet over the Tehachapi Mountains into the Los Angeles basin.

Those old pumps (installed in the early 1970s) have a capacity of 33,333 gals/sec, which is why there are storage lakes to smooth out the excess flow. The Corps has already installed pumps in New Orleans with 5 times the capacity (150,000 gal/sec) of the Edmonston pumps to prevent flooding. The Corps thus already has the experience of pumping these huge amounts of water.

It is roughly 1,400 miles from the OCRS to Lake Powell, but that really means building 1,400 miles of something similar to an interstate highway. The U.S. has already built 47,000 miles of such highways, so another 1,400 miles doesn’t feel insurmountable.

Water conservation on the part of everyone living in the Southwest is certainly important, but conservation simply can’t do the job. Los Angeles couldn’t exist without the California Aqueduct. Phoenix and other cities in the Southwest are in the same boat. Their future survival depends upon finding large amounts of new water.

Don Siefkes lives in San Leandro. Email him at donsiefkes@aol.com  

This article originally appeared on Palm Springs Desert Sun: Army Corps of Engineers must study feasibility of moving water West

 
 

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(edited)

28 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

https://news.yahoo.com/time-army-corps-engineers-investigate-130023576.html

It's time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate the feasibility of moving water West

 
 
Don Siefkes
Sat, July 30, 2022 at 8:00 AM
 
 
The Old River Control Structure regulates the flow of water leaving the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya River in Vidalia, Louisiana.
 
The Old River Control Structure regulates the flow of water leaving the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya River in Vidalia, Louisiana.

Numerous letters (including mine of June 30) have commented recently on the possibility of moving water from the Mississippi River to the Colorado River at Lake Powell (Glen Canyon dam on the Utah/Colorado border) and then downstream to Lake Mead (Hoover Dam/Las Vegas) and on through Arizona and beyond. Some of these letters are supportive and some not. The whole point of suggesting this solution to the Southwest’s water problem is to generate a public demand to the Army Corps of Engineers to investigate the feasibility of such a project.

I suggested diverting 250,000 gallons/second, which is only about 5% of the flow on the lower Mississippi south of the Old River Control Structure (ORCS) in Central Louisiana 300 miles above New Orleans. This water does nothing except flow out into the Gulf of Mexico. It generates no electricity and doesn’t help commercial shipping or recreational boating. It only causes flooding problems in New Orleans. No state above the OCRS would suffer any loss of water.

If 250,000 gals/sec is impractical, have the Corps consider a flow of 125,000 gals/sec (only 2.5% of the downriver flow), which would take two to three years to fill Lakes Powell and Mead. This is a rather rapid and reasonable time frame to solve the water problems of the Southwest.

- ADVERTISEMENT -

The reason the Old River Control Structure is so important is that it already has the infrastructure used since the 1950s to currently divert 30% of the southbound flow of the Mississippi above the OCRS over to the Atchafalaya River in Louisiana and down to the Gulf of Mexico. No further investment in building a diversion system would be needed. All you need is a big concrete-lined ditch to go to the Colorado River.

Yes, this would require massive pumping stations to lift the water up the Continental Divide at some point (the lowest lift would be 4,000 feet in Campbell, New Mexico, close to Albuquerque), but then it would be all downhill using gravity to Lake Powell or somewhere else on the Colorado above the Glen Canyon Dam. One writer suggested a series of windmills to generate the electricity, but, of course, you would need holding basins for those times when the wind isn’t blowing. That would be the Corps’ job to figure out exactly how to generate the electricity.

The California Aqueduct from Sacramento to Los Angeles (average 110 feet wide x 30 feet deep) has a capacity of about 100,000 gals/sec. The Edmonston pumping station at the south end of the California Aqueduct lifts that water up 2,000 feet over the Tehachapi Mountains into the Los Angeles basin.

Those old pumps (installed in the early 1970s) have a capacity of 33,333 gals/sec, which is why there are storage lakes to smooth out the excess flow. The Corps has already installed pumps in New Orleans with 5 times the capacity (150,000 gal/sec) of the Edmonston pumps to prevent flooding. The Corps thus already has the experience of pumping these huge amounts of water.

It is roughly 1,400 miles from the OCRS to Lake Powell, but that really means building 1,400 miles of something similar to an interstate highway. The U.S. has already built 47,000 miles of such highways, so another 1,400 miles doesn’t feel insurmountable.

Water conservation on the part of everyone living in the Southwest is certainly important, but conservation simply can’t do the job. Los Angeles couldn’t exist without the California Aqueduct. Phoenix and other cities in the Southwest are in the same boat. Their future survival depends upon finding large amounts of new water.

Don Siefkes lives in San Leandro. Email him at donsiefkes@aol.com  

This article originally appeared on Palm Springs Desert Sun: Army Corps of Engineers must study feasibility of moving water West

 
 

It will never happen in a sane world. First understand the both the Missouri and the Mississippi rivers are not really rivers. They are pools managed thru a series of dams. 

These dams not only generate power but most importantly provide water depth for Navigation. The amount of commerce channeled thru the corridor would stagger your mind. Lowering the water enough to provide California water would cripple industries up and down the the heart of the US.

California is vastly over populated, frankly population densities is so vast it is there main cause for air pollution. California has drained it sub aquifers to the point the basins have actually collapsed 15 inches.

California is the foundation of  unsustainable population. They simply do not have the resources to maintain the population that has emerged.

 

Mississippi River commerce imperiled by low water

This is an impending economic crisis" that could delay shipment of $7 billion in commodities in December and January, she says. Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon and Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, both Democrats, and members of Congress have asked the White House to intervene.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/22/mississippi-river-commerce-imperiled-by-low-water/1721817/

Edited by Eyes Wide Open
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There could be a better plan.............. transform the landscape of targeted area that could:

a) gather cloud naturally, regularly

b) rain and caught by water catchment areas, including water reservoir surrounded by trees high up and away from sources of pollution

c) in case earthquake, those trees would be buried. Millions years later, you would have oil and gas........... for robots, the sole possible survivors, if they need... :(

 

The diversion of excessive water from the 5  great lakes and rivers ought to be done carefully. Miscalculation and mismatch with weather condition could mess up the hydropower stations and other activities requiring normal volume of those water etc?

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(edited)

Why the Hell would someone too damned lazy to open a map take water out of the Mississippi instead of the Columbia river? All the idiot Don Siefkes showed is that he is a complete moron of epic proportions. The only thing going for Don is diverting Mississippi water could turn West Texas into a gargantuan farm many many times larger than the valley's of California. 

PS: It has long been proposed to either take water out of the upper snake river through Utah Or Wyoming to AZ, NV,CA for a length of about ~600miles,with a downhill gradient the entire way, or much better, a giant pipe from the Columbia River to SF, LA for a distance of about 900 miles with an infinite supply of water compared to the Mississippi which has giant wetlands at its mouth requiring the fresh water + Navigation requirements.  Columbia river has none of these problems as the navigation is done via dredge at sealevel up the Columbia river. 

PPS: The upper snake river waterway would actually only need to be maybe 200 miles if one just dumps it into the Green River.   But would require pumps up of about 1000ft.  Most preferred the route to the Salt lake(level) and then gravity feed from there for a distance of about 400 miles of canals etc.  Still have to increase canal/pipes going west from lower Colorado of course. 

PPPS: Upper snake has more water in it than the entire Colorado river has on average. 

EDIT: I believe the upper snake if one pulls from its upper reaches would actually only need a canal length of less than 100 miles to reach the upper Green.  Depending on volume. 

Edited by footeab@yahoo.com
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On 7/30/2022 at 11:06 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

It will never happen in a sane world. First understand the both the Missouri and the Mississippi rivers are not really rivers. They are pools managed thru a series of dams. 

These dams not only generate power but most importantly provide water depth for Navigation. The amount of commerce channeled thru the corridor would stagger your mind. Lowering the water enough to provide California water would cripple industries up and down the the heart of the US.

California is vastly over populated, frankly population densities is so vast it is there main cause for air pollution. California has drained it sub aquifers to the point the basins have actually collapsed 15 inches.

California is the foundation of  unsustainable population. They simply do not have the resources to maintain the population that has emerged.

 

Mississippi River commerce imperiled by low water

This is an impending economic crisis" that could delay shipment of $7 billion in commodities in December and January, she says. Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon and Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, both Democrats, and members of Congress have asked the White House to intervene.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/22/mississippi-river-commerce-imperiled-by-low-water/1721817/

Your story is from 2012. Just about every year there is flooding in the Mississippi areas, sometimes it is severe. The project in question would help solve flooding problems and the amount of water is minimal. Dredging is the answer to solving the shipping problem. 

The question of states powers versus national interests may prevent it from happening but money for the water might be the benefit in addition to reduced flooding. 

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(edited)

The Missouri river is to irregular, yes there are floods in the spring...it happens about every 5/8 yrs. 60 days later the water is down to normal levels.

The upper Missouri is where it all starts Ron, high desert country actually the water goes down in 30 days. I'd guess you would have to go see the lower Mississippi to believe the navigation...and it runs almost thru 3 state's. 

It would not be a reach to say 5/7 states would be effected vs California? Not a chance My son lived there 5 yrs ago, personally it's a shot hole. Driving the toll hwys and living in gated communities just to live says it all. 

 

Have you been to LA in the past 10 yrs?

Edited by Eyes Wide Open

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(edited)

Whiskey's for drinkin'.

Water's for fightin'!

(and spending a bunch of money on)...

Edited by turbguy

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3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Whiskey's for drinkin'.

Water's for fightin'

Pretty solid reasoning TG, even Oregon gets it panties in a knot when CA wants it's water. 

How's old Liz doing these days, sounds like she will have time for a few shots. Neocons and Progressive Liberal's unifying...Now that calls for a high ball..maybe 2!

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1 minute ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Pretty solid reasoning TG, even Oregon gets it panties in a knot when CA wants it's water. 

How's old Liz doing these days, sounds like she will have time for a few shots. Neocons and Progressive Liberal's unifying...Now that calls for a high ball..maybe 2!

At least, I get to vote in that race.

You do not.

 

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(edited)

9 minutes ago, turbguy said:

At least, I get to vote in that race.

You do not.

 

No worries there are not enough progressive liberals in Wyoming to make any impact.

They say there is a beautiful woman behind every tree in ND, One could extrapolate there is one democrat behind every tree in Wyoming...hmm trees on mountain tops..A rare phenomenon indeed.

Edited by Eyes Wide Open

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10 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

No worries there are not enough progressive liberals in Wyoming to make any impact.

They say there is a beautiful woman behind every tree in ND, One could extrapolate there is one democrat behind every tree in Wyoming...hmm trees on mountain tops..A rare phenomenon indeed.

Have some trees...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbguy/52266205353/in/photostream/lightbox/

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Turning flood waters and spring run off into crops, habitat and Forrest’s is a great way to spend money. With todays politics prices will have to triple if we gain an excess. Like nat gas, the more the US produces the higher the price. The bigger the exports in volume the more producers make. Welcome to corruption. If we could use floods to grow say 1 billion more black berry bushes, we could pay triple for the harvest and sit on the porch while eating them. Wont those who can’t afford them be jealous like a Russian looking for a cheap chip. 

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(edited)

On 7/30/2022 at 10:06 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

California is the foundation of  unsustainable population. They simply do not have the resources to maintain the population that has emerged.

 

California produces and exports a lot of surplus food. 

11.9% of population and produces 13.5% of the food.

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

https://beef2live.com/story-states-produce-food-value-0-107252

Eat crow

 

Edited by TailingsPond

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On 7/30/2022 at 9:47 AM, Ron Wagner said:
All you need is a big concrete-lined ditch to go to the Colorado River.
 

Evaporation losses would be huge, would need a more costly pipe

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(edited)

1 hour ago, TailingsPond said:

California produces and exports a lot of surplus food. 

11.9% of population and produces 13.5% of the food.

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

https://beef2live.com/story-states-produce-food-value-0-107252

Eat crow

 

Game over for Cali..Lol this has been a long time in the making. The state is literally destroying itself

So much water is being pumped from the ground in parched California that the land is sinking, according to scientists.

The more Californians rely on groundwater, the worse these problems will get, experts across industry, government, and academia say. But, they said, the pumping is likely to continue given a confluence of factors that range from urban population growth to an expanding agricultural industry.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/california-drought/californians-pump-groundwater-land-sinks-aquifers-shrink-n145466

California Central Valley groundwater depletion slowly raises Sierra Nevada mountains

https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=131393

As Californians Pump Groundwater

Edited by Eyes Wide Open
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It will not happen; been a discussion about this before, along with other ideas.

The cost of green wackos would file so many lawsuits, and by the time it got approval, the amount of time to do it makes it doomed to failure from the beginning.

Even if the green wackos didn't file suits, the States impacted by this would file claims.

  • Upvote 1

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On 8/6/2022 at 12:23 PM, Eyes Wide Open said:

Game over for Cali.

You said  "They simply do not have the resources to maintain the population that has emerged." when in fact they do, and they even sell surplus resources.

They could also always cut back on high water demand / high profit crops like almonds.

 

You are so entertaining.  Keep it up!

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On 8/5/2022 at 9:41 PM, turbguy said:

Seniors devolve back into school children... group hikes counting off numbers, holding hands to cross roads, with nannies... Ultimately end up with diapers and baby strollers(walkers)

Ah, the joys of what I have to look "forward" to😆

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On 8/6/2022 at 11:23 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

Game over for Cali..Lol this has been a long time in the making. The state is literally destroying itself

So much water is being pumped from the ground in parched California that the land is sinking, according to scientists.....The more Californians rely on groundwater, population growth to an expanding agricultural industry.

 

Yes, because it is near IMPOSSIBLE to get the damn government off your neck and to collect their own rain water and use said rain water on their own farms because of authoritarian dictatorial government policies.  Meanwhile, grandfathered water rights are being cut off while the urban centers steal these water rights instead of doing desalination.  Only solution, drill water wells..... which is ALSO illegal except you can "refurbish" existing water wells so deeper and deeper they go while taxes go up and up and up.

PS: Yes, a large canal from the Mississippi to W. Texas would be wonderful and should have been done years ago.  This would dwarf the agricultural production of any other state if this occurred.  California will go its own way from the USA becoming its own nation eventually .  It is only a matter of time. 

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