The EU Loses The Principles On Which It Was Built

Saudi Arabia’s reaction when Canada’s foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland, called in a tweet for the release of Samar Badawi, a leading Saudi women’s rights activist - against Canadian ambassador in SA and call for 10,000 Saudi students studying in Canada to pack their bags - is last, but not least example where EU foreign policy is going.  This was a test case for the west’s commitment to defending human rights activists in semi-democratic and authoritarian countries and regimes. But instead of standing up for Canada, Europe backed away.. Silence is a brand name for  EU leaders and Brussels. Same or similar situation as in Iran example, Egypt, Russia, or Hungary and their right-wing leader Orban. So, I'm sure these are not principles on which EU was built. And, it could be a one way street if we are talking about end of the EU.

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Obviously, The EU is putting economic interests and stability before human rights and the rule of law. So sad,too bad.

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Britain and Saudi Arabia recently set a target of $90bn in trade and investment deals over the next decade... No attitude - no trade war with regime in SA.

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The United States and the EU should make it clear to Saudi Arabia that you don’t expel an ambassador over a tweet. The lack of solidarity of the allies is shameful. If the Saudi regime prevails in its confrontation with Canada it will set a precedent.

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Somebody called crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman the reformer? He is not the reformer he's an impulsive authoritarian.

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22 minutes ago, Petar said:

Obviously, The EU is putting economic interests and stability before human rights and the rule of law. So sad,too bad.

EU foreign policy is monetary policy... Indeed, all the world has a same approach in this context - money before anything.

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41 minutes ago, franco said:

Silence is a brand name for  EU leaders and Brussels. Same or similar situation as in Iran example, Egypt, Russia, or Hungary and their right-wing leader Orban. So, I'm sure these are not principles on which EU was built. And, it could be a one way street if we are talking about end of the EU.

Hold on there whats with the EU being unwilling to call out Saudi what about its biggest backer, the country that without whose help it would not be able to defend itself, the good ole land of the free, upholders of democary and human rights, the USA? No not a word from them either, why you bringing up such a pointless post?  Nobody is backing Canada.

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"Recalling" the Saudi students, in effect yanking them out of college, shattering their education and disrupting their lives, leaving chaos in his wake, is Mohammad bin-Salman's grotesque and immature reaction to a mild criticism.  He does that in order to disrupt the funding of colleges with thin budgets, as those Saudi students pay full freight  and the colleges really need that revenue stream to meet their payroll budgets.  So it is MbS's way of inflicting hurt on Canadian schools.  Is he doing a hissy fit?  But of course.  He controls the purse strings, and since those Saudis don't want to pay themselves, then they are stuck with being pawns. 

Is KSA an autocratic place with autocratic rulers?  Yup, you bet.  Is the EU remiss in not putting their collective foot down?  Yup, sure is. 

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51 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Hold on there whats with the EU being unwilling to call out Saudi what about its biggest backer, the country that without whose help it would not be able to defend itself, the good ole land of the free, upholders of democary and human rights, the USA? No not a word from them either, why you bringing up such a pointless post?  Nobody is backing Canada.

Hmmm.  I believe the Queen of England is the Head of State of Canada?  Anyway, nice to see you have some interest in this topic, jaycee, if not mass starvation in Venezuela. 👍

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The mass starvation one had gone so far in to fairyland I gave up to be honest. Lots of people with no idea on how the world works I did not know where to start hence deleted what I had taken 3 or 4 revisions to write.

Yes Queen I think is head of state of Canada but that changes nothing politics run the world and our politicans are as pragmatic as all the rest.

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(edited)

4 hours ago, jaycee said:

The mass starvation one had gone so far in to fairyland I gave up to be honest. Lots of people with no idea on how the world works I did not know where to start hence deleted what I had taken 3 or 4 revisions to write.

Yes Queen I think is head of state of Canada but that changes nothing politics run the world and our politicans are as pragmatic as all the rest.

We all know how the "world works," it is Hobbsian, and is nasty, brutish, and short in life. So here is your question:  does that make it right?  Does it have to be that way? And who, other than the Americans, can show any leadership?  

I reiterate that in Venezuela there will be mass starvation, with 25 million dead. I appreciate that you do not agree. I also appreciate that you view any external resolution as "fairyland," should not even be considered much less attempted, and the people there can be left to their own devices. 

PS The Queen in theory still has that Governor General there, but that is a bit like the Guard guys at the Palace in London, they can march around in their fur hats, but don't determine policy.  Since 1967, and ultimately the adoption of the Canadian Constitution, the Queen in reality has nothing to say  (and also seeks nothing to say). 

Edited by Jan van Eck
scrivener error
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1 hour ago, franco said:

Saudi Arabia’s reaction when Canada’s foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland, called in a tweet for the release of Samar Badawi, a leading Saudi women’s rights activist - against Canadian ambassador in SA and call for 10,000 Saudi students studying in Canada to pack their bags - is last, but not least example where EU foreign policy is going.  This was a test case for the west’s commitment to defending human rights activists in semi-democratic and authoritarian countries and regimes. But instead of standing up for Canada, Europe backed away.. Silence is a brand name for  EU leaders and Brussels. Same or similar situation as in Iran example, Egypt, Russia, or Hungary and their right-wing leader Orban. So, I'm sure these are not principles on which EU was built. And, it could be a one way street if we are talking about end of the EU.

You had me until you criticised the "right wing" freedom loving Hungarians and Orban. I hope the EU does collapse because it is against freedom of speech and does not defend its own populations against the Muslim hordes trying to take over all of the world. The Middle East has been a population bomb since WW2 and now they want to invade the nominally Christian countries whose culture and religion they hate and want to destroy. 

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(edited)

2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

And who, other than the Americans, can show any leadership?  

What Trump is showing is not leadership of the West its leadership of what he wants and possibly what America wants time will tell on the latter. To be fair he is not much different from past US presidents only they did it with soft power and caused less ripples. Basically America leads the West as they want a buffer between them and Russia, and now China. The West tolerate this as the Americans are the better choice, currently. There is no over arching power of good alliance combating evil its a marriage of convenience.

 

2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

I reiterate that in Venezuela there will be mass starvation, with 25 million dead. I appreciate that you do not agree. I also appreciate that you view any external resolution as "fairyland," should not even be considered much less attempted, and the people there can be left to their own devices. 

What I wrote was....... 

'The mass starvation one had gone so far in to fairyland I gave up to be honest. Lots of people with no idea on how the world works I did not know where to start hence deleted what I had taken 3 or 4 revisions to write.'

And you have interpreted it as I do not agree 25 million would die and that I see no external resolution etc total straw man argument and cannot in anyway be interpreted from what I wrote and that is why I deleted my post. It would have taken so much effort to actually explain my views to people so far away from what I am see that it wasn't worth the effort and you my friend just proved I made the correct decision with your total misinterpretation of what little I have written on the subject.

2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

PS The Queen in theory still has that Governor General there, but that is a bit like the Guard guys at the Palace in London, they can march around in their fur hats, but don't determine policy.  Since 1967, and ultimately the adoption of the Canadian Constitution, the Queen in reality has nothing to say  (and also seeks nothing to say). 

That I take it is aimed at Dan who appeared to insinuate that because the Queen was head of state there is some loyalty or duty of care to Canada? I don't much care, I take no notice of her or her family.

Edited by jaycee
terrible spelling as I forgot to reread one paragraph.

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5 minutes ago, jaycee said:

What Trump is showing is not leadership of the West its leadership of what he wants and possibley what Amercia wants time will tell o nthe latter. To be fair he is not much different from past US presidents only they did it with soft power and casued less ripples. Basically America leads the West as they want a buffer between them and Russai, and now China. The West tolerate this and as the Americasn are the better choice, currently. There is no over arching power of good alliance comapbting evil its a marriage of conveninence.

 

What I wrote was....... 

'The mass starvation one had gone so far in to fairyland I gave up to be honest. Lots of people with no idea on how the world works I did not know where to start hence deleted what I had taken 3 or 4 revisions to write.'

And you have interpreted it as I do not agree 25 million would die and that I see no external resolution etc total straw man argument and that is why I deleted my post. It would have taken so much effort to actually explain my views to people so far away from what I am see that it wasn't worth the effort and you my friend just proved I made the correct decision with your total misinterpretation of what little I have written on the subject.

That I take it is aimed at Dan who appeared to insinuate that because the Queen was head of state there is some loyalty or duty of care to Canada? I don't much care, I take no notice of her or her family.

Yeah, Jan.  I chose my words carefully (head of state) because that was all my admittedly weak argument about that point had.  I knew the Queen of England has no other power over or even representation of Canada today, but thanks for calling it out for everyone.  :)

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4 hours ago, jpZelabal said:

Britain and Saudi Arabia recently set a target of $90bn in trade and investment deals over the next decade... No attitude - no trade war with regime in SA.

a mate of mine works for BAE and said whether or not Britain sells arms to KSA, bombs will get dropped on Yemen. 

If we don't sell them Eurofighters and Hawks, the USA will pitch in with some more f-15's or FA-18's. If the Americans refuse the Swedes do a nice like in SAAB Gripens. If the Swedes won't play then then China have some nice J-11's j-17's they'll barter for oil. 

To bomb Yemen you could do it in aircraft built in the 1970's. However the Saudis like to have top notch gear and split their airframe orders between the USA and the UK to avoid being overdependent on one supplier. 

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(edited)

6 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Yeah, Jan.  I chose my words carefully (head of state) because that was all my admittedly weak argument about that point had.  I knew the Queen of England has no other power over or even representation of Canada today, but thanks for calling it out for everyone.  :)

There is more to it than that, Dan.  Jay up there (upstairs) sits up there and pontificates that the people living in America have no idea how the world works and the discussion (which was generated by me, and basically guided by me) is a "fairyland."  And that is all very nice for the Canadians to say, but remember that, while they reminisce of the past glories of Les Vingt Deux and the raids on the Ohio Valley in the French and Indian Wars, the reality is that Canadians are fat and wealthy from sucking on the American teat, their Glorious Leaders including, rather especially, the Trudeaus and the Freelands, dump on the White House and pretty much everything else, it is the American Army that guarantees Canada's independence, the American Air Force that shields the True North, and the American Navy that protects its shores.  The Canadians are rocking-chair guys, they talk a good story about the charge at Ypres but since then, actually including then, it has been all downhill. 

The Canadians don't do anything about Maduro or the massive problems in Venezuela because (1) they are impotent as a nation, and (2) Canadians are totally self-absorbed. The self-absorption leads to this massive mental state of Denial as to the realities of the planet, including the realities of Canada itself. It is as if some mist has fogged over the mental landscape. They talk a good story but in reality don't much give a damn. They leave it to the Americans to bear the burden and what they do is make good money selling armored wheeled vehicles and guns. For Canadians, it is all about the cash. And that is why you see these bleats of fury when The Donald starts cutting off the gravy train. 

I lived in Canada for 18 years and came away disgusted with the place.  The North is beautiful country.  What it needs is to have the inhabitants deported somewhere else and new people brought in. That would be much more to my taste. 

Edited by Jan van Eck
spelling error
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51 minutes ago, NickW said:

a mate of mine works for BAE and said whether or not Britain sells arms to KSA, bombs will get dropped on Yemen. 

If we don't sell them Eurofighters and Hawks, the USA will pitch in with some more f-15's or FA-18's. If the Americans refuse the Swedes do a nice like in SAAB Gripens. If the Swedes won't play then then China have some nice J-11's j-17's they'll barter for oil. 

To bomb Yemen you could do it in aircraft built in the 1970's. However the Saudis like to have top notch gear and split their airframe orders between the USA and the UK to avoid being overdependent on one supplier. 

Yemen is a country just barely out of the Stone Age, and if you really wanted to bomb it you could use some Junkers JU-52, there are still a few of them flying around in Germany. Anything newer than 70 is overkill. 

The sale of heavy-artillery hardware is the eternal shame of the West.  There is no excuse for selling these primitive societies these advanced weapons of mass destruction.  The USA is the worst offender; as you trenchantly point out, so are the Europeans and the Russians. It is a complete disgrace. The "Merchants of Death" are all these monsters of the planet, they need to be excised.  You are never going to have peace while arms are being trafficked. 

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2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Yeah, Jan.  I chose my words carefully (head of state) because that was all my admittedly weak argument about that point had.  I knew the Queen of England has no other power over or even representation of Canada today, but thanks for calling it out for everyone.  

Strictly technically, a Canadian Citizen is recognized as a "British Subject."  A Canadian thus owes "fealty" to the Queen or King of England, keeping in mind that Fealty is differentiated from Citizenship.  Fealty is thus expressed by being on bended knee to the King, a genuflection, which non-subjects are not expected to do. OK, so all that goes back to medieval times, but hey, I am a 13th-century kind of guy. These tend to be technical differences, however a Canadian, being a loyal Subject to the Crown and thus a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, gets to go through UK customs in the "Commonwealth" line instead of the "aliens" line, which is where the Americans are herded  (probably to be quietly inspected for guns).   The third line was for EU passport holders, but I suspect that one is getting dismantled. :)

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1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is more to it than that, Dan.  Jay up there (upstairs) sits up there and pontificates that the people living in America have no idea how the world works

Wrong again never mentioned Americans added to that you have pointed out to me you are not an American when I said I wasn't English.. Stop trying to attribute words to me I did not say.

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1 minute ago, jaycee said:

Wrong again never mentioned Americans added to that you have pointed out to me you are not an American when I said I wasn't English.. Stop trying to attribute words to me I did not say.

You don't have to say it.  Perfectly obvious who you are criticizing (again). 

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10 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

You don't have to say it.  Perfectly obvious who you are criticizing (again). 

I critize everyone as nobody is perfect knowing your own faults though is a good way to understand others. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of 'making a strawman argument' as that is clearly a fault of yours. Please stick to discussing what i said and not what you think I said, life is too short.

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Just now, jaycee said:

I critize everyone as nobody is perfect knowing your own faults though is a good way to understand others. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of 'making a strawman argument' as that is clearly a fault of yours. Please stick to discussing what i said and not what you think I said, life is too short.

Tell you what, you don't like my ideas, you don't much like me either, you have made clear your dislike of my alarm over Venezuela and my proposed solutions, instead of writing nasty notes, why don't you go your way, I'll go my way, and that way we can both scrupulously avoid casting aspersions, probably better for the forum. 

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2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is more to it than that, Dan.  Jay up there (upstairs) sits up there and pontificates that the people living in America have no idea how the world works and the discussion (which was generated by me, and basically guided by me) is a "fairyland."  And that is all very nice for the Canadians to say, but remember that, while they reminisce of the past glories of Les Vingt Duex and the raids on the Ohio Valley in the French and Indian Wars, the reality is that Canadians are fat and wealthy from sucking on the American teat, their Glorious Leaders including, rather especially, the Trudeaus and the Freelands, dump on the White House and pretty much everything else, it is the American Army that guarantees Canada's independence, the American Air Force that shields the True North, and the American Navy that protects its shores.  The Canadians are rocking-chair guys, they talk a good story about the charge at Ypres but since then, actually including then, it has been all downhill. 

The Canadians don't do anything about Maduro or the massive problems in Venezuela because (1) they are impotent as a nation, and (2) Canadians are totally self-absorbed. The self-absorption leads to this massive mental state of Denial as to the realities of the planet, including the realities of Canada itself. It is as if some mist has fogged over the mental landscape. They talk a good story but in reality don't much give a damn. They leave it to the Americans to bear the burden and what they do is make good money selling armored wheeled vehicles and guns. For Canadians, it is all about the cash. And that is why you see these bleats of fury when The Donald starts cutting off the gravy train. 

I lived in Canada for 18 years and came away disgusted with the place.  The North is beautiful country.  What it needs is to have the inhabitants deported somewhere else and new people brought in. That would be much more to my taste. 

The Saudis will soon hire Jan to write a book on Canada.

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1 minute ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

The Saudis will soon hire Jan to write a book on Canada.

I will be writing my own, and it will not be filled with accolades, that's for sure.  I shall refuse Saudi money on principle. I shall not undertake any venture with this Saudi government.  (I appreciate you intended that comment to be a little humor, a bit of tongue in cheek, but since I am so stentorian, I opt to take it literally,). 

Canadians have done a lot of damage to their country.  They continue to do a lot of damage. They have this idea that they are benighted.  Guess what; they aren't. 

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2 hours ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

The Saudis will soon hire Jan to write a book on Canada.

if so, I'd read it. 

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