Energy Armageddon

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

14 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

I am aware of that. I have witnessed large schools gathering around boats also. I was talking about Asian carp being sensitive to the noise. 

Here is some good info. on how sonar affects some sea mammals.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar

Good God man... Your argument is SONAR vrs wind turbines?

Literally 100 orders of magnitude difference...  if not greater...

Do you also believe that storms on the ocean creating VASTLY more noise via wave action than a HAWT disorient wildlife as well??????

Are you for real?  Stop sipping the sauce dude

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:26 PM, Ron Wagner said:

 

I asked you to show proof that this has happened before mankind started using sonar. Can you back up the statement you just made? The article explains why the sonar spooks the whales and dolphins and they surface more frequently. Modern whalers have used this technique to harvest them. I am not saying that accident's don't happen, but they are rare. The newer types of asian carp are common near me. The Silver Carp, are spooked by motorboats and jump high out of the water. People sometimes shoot them with bows or catch them with nets. Great sport and good fish to eat. Meanwhile states are trying to kill them off while they can provide good food. The states fear that traditional gamefish will be decimated. The silver carp are similar to whales in that they are surface feeders, in fact their eyes are nearer the top of their head and they eat mainly algae. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPeg1tbBt0A Silver carp documentary. 

Ron I'm not disagreeing that sonar probably influences whales in a negative way, but your original post was that offshore wind turbines do.

I still dont see any evidence that wind turbines cause whales to beach.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:55 PM, Ron Wagner said:

Seals do not use sonar. I have no objection to wind turbines that are agreed to by the local communities, counties, and states. In Illinois they are common, but we have them in cornfields and no few scenic areas that would be affected. Ocean turbines should, in my opinion, be beyond the horizon. They can be further out or shorter, that should not be an issue. I am AOK with wind turbines in acceptable areas, if there are no subsidies and they are not misrepresented to the public. Also the proper disposal and reclamation should be insured. 

I haven't seen any myself but plenty of my fellow sailors have seen Porpoises in that area. On occasions there have been Beluga and Humpback Whales. 

If you are concerned about marine noise I assume you are also campaigning to have offshore gas rigs removed? 

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Ron I'm not disagreeing that sonar probably influences whales in a negative way, but your original post was that offshore wind turbines do.

I still dont see any evidence that wind turbines cause whales to beach.

The fact the turbine (the noise source) is 100m or more above the sea surface would suggest the submarine impact is minimal / non existent.

I accept in the construction phase that might result in disturbances but then this applies to any marine works - gas, oil, interconnectors, pipelines, bridges, harbour construction etc.

However the biggest killer of marine mammals must be breaking waves as these are the most significant source of infrasound.....

Ron probably also believes the noise from wind turbines gives you cancer. must be true - Trump said so......🤡

[TailingsPond + 1,006]

Pro-oil people complaining about unsightly wind turbines and the "harmful noise" they might make is hilarious.

Shall we remind them about Deepwater horizon and the multitude of other oil spills?

Heck, even when tankers don't crash they are ugly and highly polluting (and I'm not talking about bloody noise pollution).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

[specinho + 467]

19 hours ago, NickW said:

I haven't seen any myself but plenty of my fellow sailors have seen Porpoises in that area. On occasions there have been Beluga and Humpback Whales. 

If you are concerned about marine noise I assume you are also campaigning to have offshore gas rigs removed? 

 

On 2/24/2023 at 1:28 PM, Ron Wagner said:

Lots of air time and I have never seen such large whales dead on the beach. Apparently it is directly due to development of wind turbines. It has to do with sonar that deafens the whales so they cannot navigate. That will not fly with ecologists and needs a work around!

 

The assumption might not be completely incorrect...

Marine mammals and lives might have been navigating their ways guided by magnetic field on earth. Disruption of signal e.g. earthquake (particularly sea origin), volcano eruption, wavy storm etc might have caused them to stranded in massive number so often these few years.

Wind turbine might be using concept of dynamo i.e. rotation of blades disrupts magnetic field. Electricity generated. Magnetic field used in such a scale offshore, and may be the sound or vibration created, could possibly disrupt normal signal marine lives used to be detecting. Birds probably too. They become vulnerable,  besides threatened by natural disaster.

Not sure about offshore gas rig but ..... Flaring activity near the coast has proven to have direct impact on marine lives.

Volunteered ages ago as one of the pioneers in turtle conservation project along a coast somewhere small. According to the person in charged, the number of returned turtles reduced much, as the beach turned much brighter than it used to be. Although egg poaching activity and low surviving rate of young hatchlings in the sea might have contributed to the reduction, any change in natural setting would have impact, conscious or unconscious, on wild lives......

Things we did not know before does not mean we should continue to ignore it after knowing.

New projects would have these things to be considered before a more proper location is selected. Old projects could mediate the impact by setting up modified condition e.g. covering up flaring or redirecting the flare to a good use instead as a waste; set up sanctuary mimicking the old landing strip, grow hatchling up to a certain size before releasing them with food or fries of those....etc

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

22 hours ago, NickW said:

Ron probably also believes the noise from wind turbines gives you cancer. must be true - Trump said so......🤡

Consistent with Green Energy implementation...another calamity. When will this rush to implement be taken away from amateurs and on line bloggers. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/19/these-electric-submarines-map-the-seafloor-to-make-way-for-wind-power.html

 

These electric submarines map the seafloor to make way for wind power

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2008.997

Whales subjected to military sonar will neither dive nor feed, according to an unpublished 2007 report from the UK military, obtained by Nature after a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

The impact of sonar on whales has become an increasingly fraught issue in recent years, with submarine exercises being linked to several high-profile mass strandings. The US Navy has admitted concerns over sonar’s effects on marine mammals, although actual evidence for harm has been in short supply.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[TailingsPond + 1,006]

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

These electric submarines map the seafloor to make way for wind power

Whales subjected to military sonar will neither dive nor feed, according to an unpublished 2007 report

So your issue is with electric submarines and use of military sonar.

None of that has to do with an operating windmill. Try again.

Edited February 28, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

18 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

So your issue is with electric submarines and use of military sonar.

None of that has to do with an operating windmill. Try again.

Well my offshore troll perhaps your understanding of the English language needs a recalbration. Perhaps you might indulge you micro intellect as to just how wind farms sights are selected...

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/oceans/save-the-whales/seismic-sonar-testing/#:~:text=The types of impacts marine,economies along the Atlantic coast.

Seismic & Sonar Testing

For marine mammals caught closer to the training exercises, the pain they would suffer would be immense. The powerful sonar blasts will destroy their hearing and even cause their brains to hemorrhage. Naval sonar has already led to mass whale strandings, as disoriented whales attempt to escape the noise.

The National Marine Fisheries Service is responsible for the protection of these marine mammals, but instead of tossing out the Navy’s training plan, it gave the Navy the green light.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[TailingsPond + 1,006]

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well my offshore troll perhaps your understanding of the English language needs a recalbration. Perhaps you might indulge you micro intellect as to just how wind farms sights are selected...

Yes, the "[farm site]" selections might require a one-time pass with sonar to map seafloor.  Are you really suggesting the noise from sonar exploration is a significant environmental risk?  It is exploration not production or military-grade stuff.  Heck, my buddies boats have sonar fish-finders, just mapping depth / seabed contours is nothing.

But hey, at least we know now that you think Greenpeace is a reputable reference. Noted.

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/oceans/save-the-whales/seismic-sonar-testing/#:~:text=The types of impacts marine,economies along the Atlantic coast.

"While whales and other marine life are threatened by international whaling and habitat loss, they also face a domestic threat. Navy sonar testing and seismic testing from the oil and gas industry regularly take place in areas where marine species thrive. Find out more about the impacts and what you can do to help."

Edited February 28, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:06 AM, Ron Wagner said:

It was on a television news report and I have frequently heard from educated sources that sonar used by the navy and marine engineers interfere with whales and dolphins, which are mammals, sonar hearing which causes them to become totally disoriented. That makes sense to me. Maybe I can find a reference for you.

Please find me an old reference prior to modern sonar use by mankind. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar 

Note the very high sensitivity of marine mammals that can be hear noises far away. Also listen to sounds of whales communicating with one another. 

what does sonar have to do with turbines? Sonar is insanely loud. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

8 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

what does sonar have to do with turbines? Sonar is insanely loud. 

Yeah thats what I asked him too

[Ron Wagner + 706]

You both should read the documentation I provided and you would know something about the topic being discussed. I will help you out. It has to do with using sonar in the construction phase of the wind turbines. 

[Ron Wagner + 706]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:50 PM, NickW said:

I haven't seen any myself but plenty of my fellow sailors have seen Porpoises in that area. On occasions there have been Beluga and Humpback Whales. 

If you are concerned about marine noise I assume you are also campaigning to have offshore gas rigs removed? 

I have never heard of any beachings attributed to offshore gas rigs. Fish, not mammals, are known to gather around the shelter of gas rigs. 

I would prefer they be beyond the horizon if possible, and not waste natural gas by flaring any more than needed, even if it is inconvenient for them. 

[Ron Wagner + 706]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:13 AM, Rob Plant said:

Ron I'm not disagreeing that sonar probably influences whales in a negative way, but your original post was that offshore wind turbines do.

I still dont see any evidence that wind turbines cause whales to beach.

Sonar is used in the construction phase. That should have been fully investigated in the Environmental Impact Report, so it should be redone and the construction suspended until it is either ruled out or remediated. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

40 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

Sonar is used in the construction phase. That should have been fully investigated in the Environmental Impact Report, so it should be redone and the construction suspended until it is either ruled out or remediated. 

Good grief Ron don't you ever stop? Mapping sonar is a small fraction of the loudness of military sonar. It is used all the time all over the world. 

Multibeam sonar systems were developed to produce more accurate maps of the seafloor...the NOAA Hydrographic Survey maps more than 5,000 square nautical miles each year along the U.S coast. https://dosits.org/people-and-sound/examine-the-earth/map-the-sea-floor/

Then of course there is the use of sonar in oil and gas:

This segment involves the routing and construction of pipelines from well sites to the shore or floating plant, and the development of harbors or jetties to support tankers along with supply and service vessels.  In this area, HYPACK® is used to map the seabed for safe pipeline routing and surveying of as-built pipelines.  Our software is extensively used to perform hydrographic and geophysical surveys for the engineering design and construction of suitable harbors, and to accurately chart seabeds for the safe navigation and passage of tankers, and supply and service vessels. 

ENVIRONMENTAL   

HYPACK® can acquire a variety of marine and coastal data which are used for environmental impact assessments or critical habitat monitoring.  Examples include sea grass or coral reef mapping with multibeam and side scan sonars, or using the HYPACK® Payload for shoreline change assessments or oil spill monitoring.    

 

Oil & Gas

Offshore hydrographic surveys are a necessary precursor for all underwater oil and gas installations. Before any type of platform construction can begin, engineers and builders need accurate information on water depth. As construction gets underway and continues, they need ongoing data to ensure the infrastructure

is being built according to plans, and after construction, they must ensure the construction meets design and safety standards. Surveys are also a critical part of preventive maintenance and any rep

We offer a simplified portfolio of four multibeam echosounders, all with wideband selectable operating frequencies. What sets R2Sonic apart is the ability to customize each sonar with any of our suite of revolutionary technical modes. You can add any of these options to any multibeam sonar at any time. You can upgrade remotely from wherever you are, whenever you need.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Yeah thats what I asked him too

I think the big question now is why he is all for sonar use in oil and gas exploration but not for renewables?

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

10 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

Sonar is used in the construction phase. That should have been fully investigated in the Environmental Impact Report, so it should be redone and the construction suspended until it is either ruled out or remediated. 

Ron are you going to stop all fishermen from plying their trade also, as they use sonar to find the shoals of fish?

Do you ban all submarines and many warships from operating as well??

The above 2 examples are obviously ongoing and essential to their existence, the use of sonar in the construction of wind farms is obviously a temporary situation.

As far as I'm aware sonar is used in the oil & gas industry in the exploration and ultimate construction of oil rigs etc, I would also be surprised if it wasnt used in the construction of bridges (think Florida keys etc.)

I dont think youve thought this through very well Ron.

[Ron Wagner + 706]

Environmental impact reports are usually quite stringent so I would expect it to be addressed If it was not , then it should be redone and construction delayed. Fishermen's sonar is low power and unrelated to this issue.  Bridges and underwater construction has gone on for hundreds of years before sonar. I do not claim to be very knowledgeable in this area and I doubt if you are either. Have you read the Wikipedia articles I used? 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

Environmental impact reports are usually quite stringent so I would expect it to be addressed If it was not , then it should be redone and construction delayed. Fishermen's sonar is low power and unrelated to this issue.  Bridges and underwater construction has gone on for hundreds of years before sonar. I do not claim to be very knowledgeable in this area and I doubt if you are either. Have you read the Wikipedia articles I used? 

Hi Ron, 

Sonar is used during construction, pre-construction and even OPEX phase of O&G fields as well. Singling out offshore wind turbines is way off. sorry. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

13 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

Environmental impact reports are usually quite stringent so I would expect it to be addressed If it was not , then it should be redone and construction delayed. Fishermen's sonar is low power and unrelated to this issue.  Bridges and underwater construction has gone on for hundreds of years before sonar. I do not claim to be very knowledgeable in this area and I doubt if you are either. Have you read the Wikipedia articles I used? 

It wasn't addressed because it is something so common that no one gives it a second thought. Underwater construction is much easier and cheaper using sonar and thus it is the standard today. You cannot competitively build in or underwater without using sonar.

Then there is the issue that oil and gas use much louder noise because they are searching under the seafloor for oil and gas. Renewables just care about the shape and depth of the water.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

9 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It wasn't addressed because it is something so common that no one gives it a second thought. Underwater construction is much easier and cheaper using sonar and thus it is the standard today. You cannot competitively build in or underwater without using sonar.

Then there is the issue that oil and gas use much louder noise because they are searching under the seafloor for oil and gas. Renewables just care about the shape and depth of the water.

Let me guess....your in a competition with Biden's cup of dumbass commentary...Frankly your both neck&neck...

Cheers

EWO.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Let me guess....your in a competition with Biden's cup of dumbass commentary...Frankly your both neck&neck...

Cheers

EWO.

Well I had to dumb it down enough for you and Ron to understand how dumb his proposition was.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

4 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well I had to dumb it down enough for you and Ron to understand how dumb his proposition was.

It would be best if you went back to your dish and laid down...also known as behaving.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/more-dead-whales-washing-up-ashore-as-federal-agencies-deny-connection-to-offshore-wind-development#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16778654009808&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxbusiness.com%2Flifestyle%2Fmore-dead-whales-washing-up-ashore-as-federal-agencies-deny-connection-to-offshore-wind-development

 

More dead whales washing up ashore as federal agencies deny connection to offshore wind development

A dead humpback whale spotted off the South Jersey coast in Seaside Park, the second in the tri-state area this week

Edited March 4, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[specinho + 467]

Breaking news! BREAKING NEWS!!

Sometimes, the source of problem is this:.......