Ecocharger + 1,473 DL April 10, 2023 On 4/8/2023 at 10:10 PM, turbguy said: I cannot understand the disbelief with EV's, which are about in the same "maturity" as ICE Autos in the 1910's. Things change. ALL THE TIME! In the 1910s, the cost of a horse and an automobile varied greatly depending on several factors such as location, breed of the horse, and make and model of the car. On average, a high-quality horse could cost anywhere from $100 to $300, while a basic automobile would cost around $500 to $1000. However, some luxury cars could cost as much as $4000 or more. It's worth noting that owning a car was not just about the initial purchase cost, as maintaining and fueling an automobile was significantly more expensive than caring for a horse. Gasoline was expensive, and cars required more maintenance than horses, which made them a luxury item that only the wealthy could afford. Overall, while the cost of a horse and an automobile in the 1910s varied greatly, it's safe to say that owning a car was a much more significant expense than owning a horse. On average, a good quality horse in the 1920s could cost anywhere from $50 to $200, while a basic automobile would cost around $400 to $600, and luxury cars could cost as much as $10,000 or more. The automobile was becoming more popular and accessible in the 1920s, leading to a decrease in the cost of basic models. Additionally, cars were becoming more reliable and required less maintenance than earlier models, making them more affordable for the average person. Overall, while the cost of a horse and an automobile in the 1920s still varied, owning a car was becoming more affordable for the average person, and horses were becoming less of a necessity for transportation. See a trend?? There is a ceiling for practical EV use, it will remain about 1% of the transportation sector. No battery use in practical terms for airplanes, ships, bulk commodity trains, intercity bus. Just not going to happen. 93% of current personal vehicle sales are fossil fuel, the base stock of fossil fuel vehicles is continuing to grow in absolute numbers at a fast clip, which means that oil and gasoline demand continues to grow. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,007 GE April 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: There is a ceiling for practical EV use, it will remain about 1% of the transportation sector. No battery use in practical terms for airplanes, ships, bulk commodity trains, intercity bus. Just not going to happen. 93% of current personal vehicle sales are fossil fuel, the base stock of fossil fuel vehicles is continuing to grow in absolute numbers at a fast clip, which means that oil and gasoline demand continues to grow. The electric buses we already have can go 400Km on a single charge. To think their range won't continue to improve is foolish. Most cities are much closer together than 400Km, heck many countries are smaller than that. https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_plans/transit/electric-buses I agree planes and cargo vessels will continue to use a liquid fuel of some sort, but that doesn't necessarily need to come from oil; but it probably will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,473 DL April 11, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, TailingsPond said: The electric buses we already have can go 400Km on a single charge. To think their range won't continue to improve is foolish. Most cities are much closer together than 400Km, heck many countries are smaller than that. https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_plans/transit/electric-buses I agree planes and cargo vessels will continue to use a liquid fuel of some sort, but that doesn't necessarily need to come from oil; but it probably will. Of course oil will continue to dominate the freight business, there is no alternative now or ever. EV buses is nonsense, there is insufficient charging capability to support them. Only small personal vehicles are feasible, and then are inferior in terms of value or adaptability to fossil fuel vehicles. What do you drive? I can already guess....a USED fossil fuel car, you know, the ones which emit huge amounts of toxic fumes. Am I right? Edited April 11, 2023 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM April 11, 2023 (edited) from your freinds at GS https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/electric-vehicles-are-forecast-to-be-half-of-global-car-sales-by-2035.html#:~:text=EV sales will soar to,from 2% during that span. Electric vehicles are forecast to be half of global car sales by 2035 10 FEB 2023 TOPIC: SUSTAINABILITY The adoption of electric vehicles is rising sharply as the global push for net-zero carbon emissions accelerates. EVs will make up about half of new car sales worldwide by 2035, according to Goldman Sachs Research. While the EV sector is beset by some major crosscurrents — rising prices for electrical power, inflation for the materials that make up battery components and government policies like the Inflation Reduction Act in the U.S. and Europe’s response to the IRA — our strategists expect technology innovation to supersede these forces in the coming years. EV sales will soar to about 73 million units in 2040, up from around 2 million in 2020, according to forecasts by Goldman Sachs Research. The percentage of EVs in worldwide car sales, meanwhile, is expected to rise to 61% from 2% during that span. The share of EV sales is anticipated to be well over 80% in many developed countries. “We expect the automobile industry to undergo a major transformation between 2020 and 2030, driven by the increasing adoption of vehicle electrification and autonomous driving,” Goldman Sachs equity research strategist Kota Yuzawa wrote in the team’s report. There will be no let-up in the EV industry’s expansion as environmental rules tighten and electrification technologies become more sophisticated. But the sector’s sources of profits will change dramatically As the ecosystem grows, Goldman Sachs Research expects the way the industry makes money will be transformed. Our strategists forecast sales of EVs to grow by 32% annually this decade, even as sales of products related to gasoline engines slump. The global car industry’s operating profits are expected to rise to $418 billion in 2030, up from $315 billion in 2020, while the pool of profits for EVs is forecast to increase to $110 billion from $1 billion. In the meantime, the market for EV batteries, which account for as much as 40% of the car’s cost, is becoming concentrated. The top five battery makers had more than 80% of the global market share in 2020, according to Goldman Sachs Research estimates. By comparison, the top five automakers had about 40% of the worldwide market. Pricing power has shifted to the battery makers, giving them an edge in generating higher earnings. In an attempt to rebalance their pricing power with battery makers, finished-vehicle assemblers are rushing to develop vertically integrated production and joint-venture p................... Edited April 11, 2023 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 April 11, 2023 (edited) On 4/10/2023 at 8:53 PM, Ecocharger said: EV buses is nonsense, there is insufficient charging capability to support them. You might wish to reconsider that, based on the daily load curve and the availability of otherwise curtailed generation between, say, midnight and 6:00 AM. That happens to be when the vast majority of municipal busses are not in service. Not a new idea, either. I remember city streets covered with catenary service for electric busses. These still exist in some major cities... Edited April 12, 2023 by turbguy 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP April 14, 2023 (edited) On 4/11/2023 at 3:53 AM, Ecocharger said: Of course oil will continue to dominate the freight business, there is no alternative now or ever. Eco thats frankly nonsense https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/South-Korean-partnership-to-develop-SMR-powered-sh#:~:text=Nine South Korean organisations have signed a memorandum,production of hydrogen using molten salt reactors (MSRs). South Korea as you probably know is the powerhouse of the shipbuiding industry so this is a bid deal! SMR's are actually cheaper than FF over the lifespan of the average container ship already (25-30 years) and these will only reduce in cost with added competition and tech advances, so from purely an economic point of view its a no brainer. There are dozens of SMR manufacturers jumping into this market and it will revolutionise the industry. https://hackaday.com/2020/11/19/the-shipping-industrys-transition-to-atomic-power-and-faster-deliveries/ https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/small-scale-nuclear-power-for-commercial-ship-propulsion "In addition to stable base load power, Rolls-Royce SMRs will be able to provide energy for the net zero manufacture of green hydrogen and synthetic fuels to support the decarbonisation of transport. It will occupy approximately one tenth of the size of a conventional nuclear generation site, helping to reduce local environmental impacts." Edited April 14, 2023 by Rob Plant 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SUZNV + 1,197 April 14, 2023 On 3/15/2023 at 8:49 PM, Ron Wagner said: I think you are too optimistic about driverless taxis etc. I remember thinking how monorails would be over all the major streets in Los Angeles and around the country. I was 15 at the time, influenced by Disneyland. In the thirties they dreamed of flying cars just as they do now. Now law enforcement has become a major problem on public transit in some areas. Ron, I believe you may have mistakenly responded with eye-rolling to the wrong message, as I did not mention anything about that topic. I will forward this message to @Rob Plant, and we can have a laugh about it. Regarding the issue of lagging innovation, I believe the primary cause will be a lack of investment in research and development due to high levels of government debt. This results in a disproportionate burden on the future tax contributions of a smaller and younger population. Additionally, there is an ongoing hot proxy war and de-globalization trend since the Cold War, which further exacerbates the situation. Governments will need to choose between investing in infrastructure to combat inflation or paying back public debts and supporting pension funds and social security programs. In the private sector, there will not be enough capital available for R&D towards green solutions due to the dilemma, and consumers will not have enough funds to support these initiatives either. Public debt as a percentage of GDP has surpassed the efficiency of traditional Keynesian economics. CBDCs could potentially be used for price control, where governments can subsidize needs without causing other asset prices to bubble up. Unfortunately, someone will ultimately bear the consequences of these economic challenges. In China, it is the real estate bubble, and in the US, I suspect it will be the stock market and pension funds. The Western world may attempt to blame Russia and China for any negative outcomes, but it is still preferable to the alternative of World War III. --------- I asked Chatgpt to rewrite in good English, lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 707 April 15, 2023 19 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Eco thats frankly nonsense https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/South-Korean-partnership-to-develop-SMR-powered-sh#:~:text=Nine South Korean organisations have signed a memorandum,production of hydrogen using molten salt reactors (MSRs). South Korea as you probably know is the powerhouse of the shipbuiding industry so this is a bid deal! SMR's are actually cheaper than FF over the lifespan of the average container ship already (25-30 years) and these will only reduce in cost with added competition and tech advances, so from purely an economic point of view its a no brainer. There are dozens of SMR manufacturers jumping into this market and it will revolutionise the industry. https://hackaday.com/2020/11/19/the-shipping-industrys-transition-to-atomic-power-and-faster-deliveries/ https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/small-scale-nuclear-power-for-commercial-ship-propulsion "In addition to stable base load power, Rolls-Royce SMRs will be able to provide energy for the net zero manufacture of green hydrogen and synthetic fuels to support the decarbonisation of transport. It will occupy approximately one tenth of the size of a conventional nuclear generation site, helping to reduce local environmental impacts." Natural gas is the answer for ships and railroads. It can be hybrid much like present locomotives, if desired. Hydrogen will never be cost effective compared to natural gas, will it? Natural gas burns very cleanly and is needed to produce most hydrogen! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 707 April 15, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 1:57 AM, specinho said: One major reason I got out of California long ago. Electric cars will not make a dent in the traffic problem either and that is if they catch on in America. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 707 April 15, 2023 “Locked out of market:” Why Australia trails the world in electric vehicle uptake NOVEMBER 17, 2022 38 COMMENTS 3 MINUTE READ RACHEL WILLIAMSON SHARE53 TWEET Australians are being effectively “locked out of the EV market” by the lack of supply and model choice, and its sales of electric cars are just a fraction of those in other western markets, and barely above those in developing markets. BlombergNEF’s new Zero Emission Vehicles Factbook paints a bleak picture for EV sales in Australia, despite a recent boost and some efforts from the new federal government and most state governments to provide some incentives and support for EV charging infrastructure. Australia has access to just 60 different variants of EV models right now, according to the Electric Vehicle Council’s State of Electric Vehicles report in October. BNEF figures show 318 EV models available around the world. China has access to 280, Europe to 206, and the US to just 84. The 68-page BNEF report barely mentions Australia, which is noticeable for its lack of fossil fuel vehicle phase out targets, and even a vehicle emissions target. Australia did not rate a mention for electric commercial, two-wheel or bus sales. The federal government is currently planning vehicle fuel standards legislation, and EV incentives such as removing fringe benefit taxes on certain vehicles, and a national EV policy. State incentives include the ACT’s ban on new petrol and diesel vehicles from 2035, as well as date for when government fleets need to be zero emission, rebates or tax waivers on EV purchases, and investments into public charging infrastructure. EVs proving themselves as emissions killers The benefits of going electric are becoming ever more stark. Battery EVs made in 2022 have a lower life cycle carbon dioxide emissions than combustion cars, thanks to rapidly rising shares of renewable energy in power systems “Cleaner electricity means cleaner- running BEVs. This means that the emissions advantage of BEVs against ICEs will widen further. By 2030, lifecycle CO2 emissions of BEVs will be 86%, 80% and 56% lower in Germany, the US and China than for comparable ICEs,” BNEF said. BNEF’s data shows EVs will have eliminated about 152 million tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions by the end of 2022, a figure that includes the increase in power-sector emissions created by higher electricity demand and makes up 2.4 per cent of all road transport emissions. Zero-emission road transport is possible, as EU carbon dioxide targets, that effectively ban internal combustion cars, achieving that goal in 3035. EVs and fuel cell vehicles are expected to avoid 1.7 million barrels of oil a day in 2022, or about 3.8 per cent of total oil demand. “In BNEF’s Net-Zero Scenario, which achieves a zero-emission vehicle fleet globally by 2050, oil displacement increases to over 7 million barrels per day in 2030 – roughly equivalent to Russia’s total oil and products exports prior to the war. This figure rises to nearly 16 million barrels per day in 2035,” the report said. China, Europe lead EV adoption China and Europe are the world’s EV leaders, with almost a quarter of all passenger cars sold in each region during the first half of 2022 being electric. Globally, passenger EV sales more than doubled in 2021, to 6.6 million. In the first half of 2022 that figure was already nearly 4.3 million. BNEF has the most optimistic outlook for EV adoption across commercial and passenger fleets, of 781 million by 2040, but it notes that IEA, OPEC, BP and ExxonMobil are all drastically revising their forecasts upwards as well. “Companies forecasting ZEV adoption now see tens of millions more BEVs on the road in the future than they expected in 2020, or 2021. The biggest reason for higher outlooks is more policy support and growing consumer acceptance,” the report said. But that growth is not evenly spread around the world. Germany, UK, France, China and the rest of Europe are leading. At the bottom are the ‘rest of the world’, India, Japan, Australia, India and South East Asia. IMAGE: BNEF “In over half of the global car market, EV adoption is still below 10% of sales. This includes countries like the US [6.7 per cent] and Japan [2 per cent] , which are still looking to catch up,” the report said. But the Inflation Reduction Act and revised fuel economy regulations in the US are expected to supercharge EV adoption to ‘leader’ level, while subsidies in Japan could help that country leave the ‘behind’ group. The low-hanging fruit could be sales of zero-emission commercial vehicles, however, as just 2.5 per cent of commercial vehicles sold in the first half of 2022 were electric and most of these being vans. Sales are racing ahead in South Korea, China, Germany and the UK. Rachel Williamson Rachel Williamson is a science and business journalist, who focuses on climate change-related health and environmental issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sanches + 187 April 17, 2023 The spontaneous fire problem continues to grow as an increasing number of homes and apartment buildings are burned down and an increasing number of people are being killed in fires started by e-bikes. I wouldn't be surprised if apartment contracts include a no e-bike clause, just like many have no grilling clauses, now. In fact many cities have no grilling withing 10 feet of a structure and I wouldn't be surprised to see such laws adopted for e-bikes and EVs. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP April 17, 2023 (edited) On 4/15/2023 at 6:41 AM, Ron Wagner said: Natural gas is the answer for ships and railroads. It can be hybrid much like present locomotives, if desired. Hydrogen will never be cost effective compared to natural gas, will it? Natural gas burns very cleanly and is needed to produce most hydrogen! Ron you seem to be confused! My post and its links were talking about SMR's (small modular reactors) ie nuclear, not hydrogen powered ships. Container ships powered throughout their life by an SMR. These are cheaper than bunker fuel already and they arent even mass produced. They are cheaper than NG / LPG and these fluctuate greatly in price as we have seen. SMR's also have zero emissions. This is currently the situation on ship emissions https://www.statista.com/statistics/216048/worldwide-co2-emissions-by-ship-type/ Leave it with you. Edited April 20, 2023 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW April 19, 2023 On 4/10/2023 at 10:40 PM, TailingsPond said: The electric buses we already have can go 400Km on a single charge. To think their range won't continue to improve is foolish. Most cities are much closer together than 400Km, heck many countries are smaller than that. https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_plans/transit/electric-buses I agree planes and cargo vessels will continue to use a liquid fuel of some sort, but that doesn't necessarily need to come from oil; but it probably will. London has 650 as of Feb 22. probably more now. That's in addition to a number of PHEV buses which are run on longer routes. London buses: New vehicles have phone holders and skylights - BBC News The new fleet will mean there are now 650 zero-emissions buses in the capital. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul-S + 8 PS April 20, 2023 On 2/8/2023 at 6:51 PM, markslawson said: Jay - never known it to work like that, but if you have some material supporting this I'be be interested. Here is a related article. Same thing happens to gas cars. https://motorandwheels.com/car-sales-rise-fall-based-gas-prices/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul-S + 8 PS April 20, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 7:16 PM, markslawson said: Demand for EVs is created by subsidies and incentives. Take those away and no sales.. a point shonw time and again. Now that is it. I've wasted enough time on this point. OK, let's remove all subsidies from the oil industry and see which car is cheaper to own. https://motorandwheels.com/car-sales-rise-fall-based-gas-prices/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP April 20, 2023 (edited) Electric Vehicle Market Share Continues To Grow https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Electric-Vehicle-Market-Share-Continues-To-Grow.html Have Combustion Vehicle Sales Already Peaked? https://www.visualcapitalist.com/combustion-vehicle-sales-peak/ Carmakers can kiss pre-pandemic combustion car sales goodbye https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/carmakers-can-kiss-pre-pandemic-combustion-car-sales-goodbye-1.1893191 Bearing in mind the EU is banning ICE vehicles from 2035 and the numbers out of China are even more pro EV those on here denying that there is a sizemic change in the auto industry are flying in the face of facts. Edited April 20, 2023 by Rob Plant 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 April 20, 2023 On 4/12/2023 at 11:57 PM, specinho said: The birth place of sustainable energy.. Imagine that. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,058 ML April 21, 2023 23 hours ago, Paul-S said: OK, let's remove all subsidies from the oil industry and see which car is cheaper to own. https://motorandwheels.com/car-sales-rise-fall-based-gas-prices/ This idea that the oil industry is somehow subsidised instead of heavily taxed is common among activists, but I'm sorry to tell you its quite wrong. When you next go to a gas/service/petrol station to fill up (I assume you're still driving a petrol engine car), ask yourself how much of the price is government taxes and charges. I know in Australia its something like half. Its more in Europe and less in the US. When activists are challenged on this point they are usually reduced to pointing to various tax concessions available to all industries, as well as oil and gas, and relabelling them as subsidies. The link you cite does not seem to have anything to do with subsidies. EVs have no real market edge and a major disadvantage in lack of recharging infrastructure and charging times. They need incentives to sell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 April 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, markslawson said: This idea that the oil industry is somehow subsidised instead of heavily taxed is common among activists, but I'm sorry to tell you its quite wrong. When you next go to a gas/service/petrol station to fill up (I assume you're still driving a petrol engine car), ask yourself how much of the price is government taxes and charges. Tesla motors was founded by carbon tax credits, while auto mfgs funded those tax credits...The consumer paid for them make no mistakes. Cost shifting is never discussed in these conversations. It would be devastating to the automotive industry if the consumer was made aware of such business practices. https://www.proactiveinvestors.com/companies/news/988168/tesla-continues-to-cash-in-on-carbon-credits-988168.html?rel=scroll Alco called regulatory credits, carbon credits are government-issued corporate incentives to develop eco-friendly automobiles. Tesla being the EV giant that it is, obtains a stockpile of these credits and being tradable, regularly sells them on to automotive manufacturers with less-green credentials. In the past five years, Tesla has earned over US$5bln by selling carbon credits. Edited April 21, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,007 GE April 21, 2023 $193 billion investment by VW https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/14/cars/volkswagen-ev-investment-canada-plant/index.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 470 April 22, 2023 On 4/14/2023 at 10:46 PM, SUZNV said: Regarding the issue of lagging innovation, I believe the primary cause will be a lack of investment in research and development due to high levels of government debt. This results in a disproportionate burden on the future tax contributions of a smaller and younger population. Additionally, there is an ongoing hot proxy war and de-globalization trend since the Cold War, which further exacerbates the situation. Governments will need to choose between investing in infrastructure to combat inflation or paying back public debts and supporting pension funds and social security programs. In the private sector, there will not be enough capital available for R&D towards green solutions due to the dilemma, and consumers will not have enough funds to support these initiatives either. Not sure if this data is still valid, generally in a budget R&D in all fields including military and sciences, allocation for relevant amenities, are ranking first. Besides, there is start up fund for the youngs and their ideas. These might indicate there is no lacking of fund for innovation. But according to lamentation of some engineers, nothing much is new compared to things invented in the 50s, 60s, 70s and much earlier. Worse, we have progressed to regress. It means, the so called new modern inventions actually make things and lives worse off or lower in quality than before. The issue might be induced by the change of education system. Owing to the growth of economy, graduates are produced in uniform and synchronized way, the way they produce fast food. Skip years, shorten edu period, compress senior syllabus onto juniors' that confused even the teachers, promote memorizing the exact words in a concept and application without understanding them etc were introduced and adopted. An experienced professional in finance, graduated from famous college, couldn't get the basic term definition right without cut and paste the exact words shared alarmed me. It is probably time to take a few steps back and review the situation. To continue without adjustment, sacrificing quality for quantity, would plant much larger problems ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 470 April 22, 2023 On 4/21/2023 at 8:48 AM, markslawson said: This idea that the oil industry is somehow subsidised instead of heavily taxed is common among activists, but I'm sorry to tell you its quite wrong. When you next go to a gas/service/petrol station to fill up (I assume you're still driving a petrol engine car), ask yourself how much of the price is government taxes and charges. I know in Australia its something like half. Its more in Europe and less in the US. When activists are challenged on this point they are usually reduced to pointing to various tax concessions available to all industries, as well as oil and gas, and relabelling them as subsidies. The link you cite does not seem to have anything to do with subsidies. EVs have no real market edge and a major disadvantage in lack of recharging infrastructure and charging times. They need incentives to sell. Not sure if you have heard news that three flying cars, solar and hybrid (if not mistaken) are ready for the market next year. This might mean the game level is upgraded. They will need to think about regulating electric cars that are flying on the right tracks if they become popular in a few years. The movie "taxi" by Bruce Willis in the 80s has this scene projected. It reminds me of this grid or wireless bumper electric car...... So adorable for aging cities and out skirt....🥳 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 470 April 25, 2023 created in the 50s...14 units, $200each..... If too many large cars on the road transforms these suitable a fleet in a big shopping mall... For those prefer convenience of driving through instead of walking..... Dragging behind a shopping cart would be nice... Modern one driver mini car might be a cousin of this...... Who is keen on "pull back- released-speeding-halted" public transportation...? 😯🤔🤭 If the pioneers are not too busy to compile past creations in a book, things would be better preserved and known.... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP April 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, specinho said: created in the 50s...14 units, $200each..... If too many large cars on the road transforms these suitable a fleet in a big shopping mall... For those prefer convenience of driving through instead of walking..... Dragging behind a shopping cart would be nice... Modern one driver mini car might be a cousin of this...... Who is keen on "pull back- released-speeding-halted" public transportation...? 😯🤔🤭 If the pioneers are not too busy to compile past creations in a book, things would be better preserved and known.... Not sure that would pass health and safety restrictions these days 🤣 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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