Investment in renewables tanking

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

10 hours ago, specinho said:

Good thinking. 

The question raised might have confused the single unit/ monomer and a multi unit/ polymer....

 

Ethene, is a double bond monomer of 2C. CnH2n or C2H4. - 'c = c' - 

 

Polyethene, is a polymer formed by joint multi unit monomers of ethene. For ethene to be elongated, the double bond would be broken and used to form a bond with adjacent carbon. (C2H4)n

C ( - 'c,- 'c, -) c........

When melted into liquid, it would be hydrocarbon.

How to control its length and the type of gas formed when burnt, there would certainly be a way. Chemical processes of these few are interchangeable, if not mistaken. 

 

 

 

Ethylene and polyethylene are already hydrocarbons.  They are literally made of carbon and hydrogen.

But yes, you can make any desired alkane from ethylene.

Start with sugar from corn, grains, or fruit and ferment it into ethanol. Dehydration of ethanol yields ethylene, which when polymerized yields long alkane chains.  You can then crack the polyethylene plastic into shorter chain hydrocarbons (liquid fuels).

The idea that we absolutely need fossil fuels is wrong.  It is just much, much cheaper to dig the stuff out of the ground than make the ingredients chemically.

 

[turbguy + 1,547]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:47 PM, Ron Wagner said:

IMHO Biden has received good advice from the military and is doing exactly the right thing by supporting Ukraine. It is destroying Russian aggression and their future power plays. It has also warned off China from attacking Taiwan, at least for now. China is also in a desperate economic crisis for several reasons:

Europe followed America's lead in supporting Ukrainian freedom and independence. Europe freed itself from dependence on Russian oil and gas. NATO and others imposed severe and growing sanctions on the Russian economy. Europe, and all Western nations and their allies became unified against not only the Russian Bear, but also the Chinese dragon. 

Their past reliance on massive housing construction that is now abandoned and useless.

The massive debt held by their citizens, banks, businesses, and government at all levels. ( Worse even, than that of Americas.)

The flight of international manufacturing to other countries, which is due to the lack of faith in Xi's dictatorial administration and grandiose plans for Chinese hegemony. 

The aging of the Chinese population which places a burden on the younger generations, who will need to support their elders.  

Competitive nations like India and other nations have a much younger population distribution. 

China needs to rid itself of the Chinese Communist Party and Xi to become accepted by the world as it was during China's rise. 

Communism and dictatorship has been shown to be a path to failure for any nation which lives under its  policies. 

Unfortunately, America is becoming more like Canada and Europe politically. If this is not turned around 180 degrees, we will become a democrat socialist nation like the ones in Europe. Our economy will falter, along with our traditional American values. Anyone with eyes to see, is watching it happening all around America. Biden is a leader in that movement along with his whole administration and all the government employee unions, teachers unions, USPS, major media, wealthy foundations run by the grandchildren of great business leaders, etc. etc. 

You do realize that unions gave you and I this thing called "the weekend", no??

[specinho + 470]

12 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Ethylene and polyethylene are already hydrocarbons.  They are literally made of carbon and hydrogen.

But yes, you can make any desired alkane from ethylene.

Start with sugar from corn, grains, or fruit and ferment it into ethanol. Dehydration of ethanol yields ethylene, which when polymerized yields long alkane chains.  You can then crack the polyethylene plastic into shorter chain hydrocarbons (liquid fuels).

The idea that we absolutely need fossil fuels is wrong.  It is just much, much cheaper to dig the stuff out of the ground than make the ingredients chemically.

 

You might have missed the point........

The concerns raised so far were

a) plastic waste as pollutant,

b) drying up of oil reserves  and

c) the urgency of alternatives, particularly renewable energy. 

d) tanking of investment

The only solution available officially so far is to ban usages of plastic bags, ban fossil fuel, reduce investment etc...

The discussion intended to point out that

 turning plastic waste into melted hydrocarbon can possibly be a three wins solution that solve problems of

1. plastic waste,

2. sustainability of fuel, or renewability of it when it happens in a cycle, and

3. the new direction of investment in possibly new renewable... ( Besides hydro, wind and solar)... 

Polar animal facing threat of starvation due to disruption of food chain, losing of habitats etc induced by various reasons. Photo below shows how some people increase survival rate of a pet penguin by training it to buy food in the market...

This bring us to the key:

Existing problems of fossil fuel, renewable, pollution, climate change, wasteful investment might have been in a stand still. We have not gone passed the cycle of using same solution provided more than 80 years ago, facing the same problems and new ones, and repeating with larger scale......

We might need to be doing things differently to get different outcomes... 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

23 hours ago, specinho said:

You might have missed the point........

The concerns raised so far were

a) plastic waste as pollutant,

b) drying up of oil reserves  and

c) the urgency of alternatives, particularly renewable energy. 

d) tanking of investment

The only solution available officially so far is to ban usages of plastic bags, ban fossil fuel, reduce investment etc...

The discussion intended to point out that

 turning plastic waste into melted hydrocarbon can possibly be a three wins solution that solve problems of

1. plastic waste,

2. sustainability of fuel, or renewability of it when it happens in a cycle, and

3. the new direction of investment in possibly new renewable... ( Besides hydro, wind and solar)... 

Polar animal facing threat of starvation due to disruption of food chain, losing of habitats etc induced by various reasons. Photo below shows how some people increase survival rate of a pet penguin by training it to buy food in the market...

This bring us to the key:

Existing problems of fossil fuel, renewable, pollution, climate change, wasteful investment might have been in a stand still. We have not gone passed the cycle of using same solution provided more than 80 years ago, facing the same problems and new ones, and repeating with larger scale......

We might need to be doing things differently to get different outcomes... 

Ahhh to be living in Lala land!

[Ron Wagner + 710]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:44 PM, turbguy said:

You do realize that unions gave you and I this thing called "the weekend", no??

Yes, that was long ago. I had to work half the day on Saturdays in the army however. But I did get four weeks paid vacation. Americans get far less vacation than Europeans do and retirement funds are almost non-existent in private companies. A 401K is not a comparable idea. Most companies today have little appreciation for their workers and will only give minimal benefits. When I first went to work for Tidewater Oil company I got a medical plan and some other benefits right away. 

Unions have a place, but most unionized workers are government employees and are Demoncrat voters who end up supporting anyone that they put up for office. They are also expected to pay dues which go for Democrats and not object to union leadership. Getting a government job, at any level, often entails being liberal and promising to donate to Democrats. In my opinion we are seeing a very corrupt Demoncrat government that just stole an election through controlling the media, and endlessly persecuting and undermining President Trump. Democrats don't care, as long as they win.

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

33 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

Yes, that was long ago. I had to work half the day on Saturdays in the army however. But I did get four weeks paid vacation. Americans get far less vacation than Europeans do and retirement funds are almost non-existent in private companies. A 401K is not a comparable idea. Most companies today have little appreciation for their workers and will only give minimal benefits. When I first went to work for Tidewater Oil company I got a medical plan and some other benefits right away. 

Unions have a place, but most unionized workers are government employees and are Demoncrat voters who end up supporting anyone that they put up for office. They are also expected to pay dues which go for Democrats and not object to union leadership. Getting a government job, at any level, often entails being liberal and promising to donate to Democrats. In my opinion we are seeing a very corrupt Democrat government that just stole an election through controlling the media, and endlessly persecuting and undermining President Trump. Democrats don't care, as long as they win.

There are plenty of non-governmental unions.  Autoworkers, steel, electrical, etc.   At least you do seem to acknowledge that employees without union representation are mistreated compared to others.  Workers need to fight for their rights or they won't get any.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_labor_unions_in_the_United_States

The election was not stolen, Trump tried but failed.  Even your explanation has changed, no longer is it voter fraud / Dominion etc.  Now it is 'media control.'  Meanwhile it's the conservative media who are the ones getting in trouble for broadcasting lies, and paying dearly for it. 

You were suckered, accept it and move on. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Petrobras Set To Raise Investments In Low-Carbon Energy Projects

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Petrobras-Set-To-Raise-Investments-In-Low-Carbon-Energy-Projects.html

Yep Mark's right cant seem to find any new investments in renewables! Oh wait.....

[notsonice + 1,262]

Nat Gas getting hammered today ....love the reason

Natural Gas Prices Plunge Further Amid Rise In U.S. Stockpiles

 

those pesky solar panels and wind turbines stealing electricity market share away from Coal and Nat gas

Prices in Europe have also nose-dived on weak demand, while European inventories remain higher than normal and renewable energy output has increased.

[Boat + 1,324]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:58 AM, specinho said:

You might have missed the point........

The concerns raised so far were

a) plastic waste as pollutant,

b) drying up of oil reserves  and

c) the urgency of alternatives, particularly renewable energy. 

d) tanking of investment

The only solution available officially so far is to ban usages of plastic bags, ban fossil fuel, reduce investment etc...

The discussion intended to point out that

 turning plastic waste into melted hydrocarbon can possibly be a three wins solution that solve problems of

1. plastic waste,

2. sustainability of fuel, or renewability of it when it happens in a cycle, and

3. the new direction of investment in possibly new renewable... ( Besides hydro, wind and solar)... 

Polar animal facing threat of starvation due to disruption of food chain, losing of habitats etc induced by various reasons. Photo below shows how some people increase survival rate of a pet penguin by training it to buy food in the market...

This bring us to the key:

Existing problems of fossil fuel, renewable, pollution, climate change, wasteful investment might have been in a stand still. We have not gone passed the cycle of using same solution provided more than 80 years ago, facing the same problems and new ones, and repeating with larger scale......

We might need to be doing things differently to get different outcomes... 

Tanking investment for renewables? It was reported more money will go to solar than oil in 2023. My foreign buddies still can’t keep up. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

IEA: Renewables Installations In 2023 Soar To Levels We’ve Never Seen

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/IEA-Renewables-Installations-In-2023-Soar-To-Levels-Weve-Never-Seen.html

[notsonice + 1,262]

CNET

 

https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/us-solar-panel-installations-boom-at-start-of-2023/

Your guide to a better future

 

 

 

•  

US Solar Panel Installations Boom at Start of 2023

The record quarter is due in part to supply chain gridlock easing up and to President Biden's Inflation Reduction Act.

Nina RaemontWriter

A recent graduate of the University of Minnesota, Nina started at CNET writing breaking news stories before shifting to covering Security Security and other government benefit programs. In her spare time, she's in her kitchen, trying a new baking recipe.

See full bio

Nina Raemont

June 9, 2023 11:53 a.m. PT

2 min read

 

James Martin/CNET

Solar energy installations surged in the first few months of this year, thanks in part to supply chain challenges easing. The US solar industry installed 6.1 gigawatts of solar capacity in the first quarter of 2023. That's enough power for more than 4 million homes. 

The data comes from an industry report released Thursday by the Solar Energy Industries Association and research firm Wood Mackenzie. The record quarter was driven in part by delayed solar projects proceeding once again as supply chain problems have softened, said the SEIA. Renewable energy incentives in the Biden administration's Inflation Reduction Act also helped spur demand. 

 

 

Installation in the residential segment increased 30% compared with this time last year, to 1.6 gigawatts. The residential market is expected to add 36 gigawatts of solar over the next five years, according to the report. In total, the SEIA says there's enough solar energy currently installed in the US to power 26 million households. 

Many people look to rooftop solar as a greener and (in the long run) cheaper way to fuel their homes, CNET's Katie Collins explains. It can also improve a home's value and energy independence. 

But solar doesn't work for all homeowners, including those who don't want to spend money on the upfront costs or those without ideal conditions for the panels. If you're considering solar panels on your home, CNET breaks down installations, tax credits, batteries and everything else you need to know to get started. 

 

The commercial market segment also experienced a record first quarter, installing 391 megawatts, according to the report. Florida had the most solar installations in the quarter, across commercial, residential and other sectors, with 1.46 gigawatts.                                                       

[Ron Wagner + 710]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:19 PM, markslawson said:

Posters on this site have been denying the reality of an apparent collapse in investment in green energy projects. Whenever this is mentioned they quote annual figures and total investment in teh sector in much the same manner as characters in movies hold up a Christian Cross to deter vampires. Sure some of the past annual growth looks impressive, if you don’t try to adjust the quoted plated capacity new wind and solar projects with the likely capacity factor. But in 2022 and this year green energy investments seem to have hit a wall, particularly in the last quarter of 2022 and the first quarter of this year.

This is from the wind lobby group WindEurope, in February. The European Commission wants wind to be 43% of EU electricity consumption by 2030. But right now new investments and wind turbine orders are falling. 2022 saw only 13 GW of new wind farm investments announced. Not a single offshore wind farm reached final investment decision. Wind turbine orders fell by 47% on 2021 to 11 GW.

 There are two reasons why wind investments are falling.

First is the high inflation in input prices which is insufficiently reflected in developers’ revenues. Higher commodity and other input costs have added 25-40% to the price of turbines, but wind farm developers are often stuck with a revenue base that is not indexed in line with this. Governments must fully index their auction prices and tariffs.

Second, a series of unhelpful interventions in electricity markets by different national Governments have badly undermined investor confidence.

Remember the 13 GW figure actually works out to an average output of 4.3 GW (average output for a windfarm is typically one third of plated capacity) and is for all of Europe. In other words, effectively nothing.

In Australia, the Clean Energy Council has been producing releases pointing to impressive numbers for investment, with one story claiming that investment rose a full order of magnitude in the December 2022 quarter. Really? Anyway a check of commissioned projects (a more reliable indicator than proposals or finance approvals) listed on the site shows that just 17 were commissioned in 2022, representing 1,248 Megawatts (MW) of installed capacity, as opposed to 48 completed in covid-stricken 2021 adding up to 4,589 MW, and 3,205 MW worth of projects in 2020. In 2023 (meaning the March quarter of 2023) the number of projects was two, albeit seemingly large ones, adding up to 442 MWs.

 

Why has this happened? WindEurope cited above gives part of the answer. Also, elsewhere the generous subsidies/tax breaks offered by the US Inflation Reduction Act is cited as siphoning off European investment to the US (I have not looked at the US figures but I'm not hopeful they will be much better). In addition, and probably mostly importantly of all, markets did not do well generally in 2022. A count of Initial Public Offerings (for Australia) on the securities exchange by professional services firm HLB Mann Judd shows that the number of new IPOs fell by 48 per cent in 2022, and total funds raised collapsed 91 per cent. Investment in renewables may pick up later, but in Australia the present hiatus could result in disaster in a few years, with activists still intent on throwing away the fossil fuel backup. As matters stand there may be nothing to replace those coal plants. Where can I buy a generator?

The price of electricity in Great Britain has tripled while they have gone all in for wind. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

9 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

The price of electricity in Great Britain has tripled while they have gone all in for wind. 

Why oh why dont you do your research instead of doing an EWO and jumping on his misguided bandwagon that renewables are expensive.

I have answered this about 30 times, so 1 last go 

THE PRICE OF ELECTRICITY IN THE UK HAS TRIPLED BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE SPIKE IN NG PRICES NOT BECAUSE OF RENEWABLES. IN FACT ITS BECAUSE WE HAVE RENEWABLES THAT THE PRICE WASNT EVEN HIGHER.

Now that NG prices have come down massively so are the electricity costs! Do you see the correlation????

Please please please stop making 2+2 = 5

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

Why oh why dont you do your research instead of doing an EWO and jumping on his misguided bandwagon that renewables are expensive.

Ya Don't Say....

Labour Caves on £140 Billion Green Energy Plan Over Cost Fear

The UK opposition Labour Party watered down its £140 billion ($176 billion) flagship green energy plan days before it was due to be presented as concern that it was too expensive and ambitious created mounting tensions among senior figures.

 

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/labour-caves-on-140-billion-green-energy-plan-over-cost-fear

Edited June 12, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

Green washing...hmm I sense another identity war on the horizon...

The $500 billion beauty industry’s ‘green’ ambitions are a patchwork at best. And they’re falling short

Ingredient and branding transparency

There is no international standard for the beauty industry on how much product ingredient information to share with customers — or how to do so. Brands can set their own rules and goals, giving rise to confusion and “greenwashing,” where sustainability claims are often touted but not substantiated.

Aditi Sangal, CNN

Updated 4:09 PM EDT, Thu April 6, 2023

 

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/beauty-skincare-climate/index.html

Edited June 12, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

10 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ya Don't Say....

Labour Caves on £140 Billion Green Energy Plan Over Cost Fear

The UK opposition Labour Party watered down its £140 billion ($176 billion) flagship green energy plan days before it was due to be presented as concern that it was too expensive and ambitious created mounting tensions among senior figures.

 

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/labour-caves-on-140-billion-green-energy-plan-over-cost-fear

Labour are famous for wasting money, their plans have been watered down as many of their plans simply arent required.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

13 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Labour are famous for wasting money, their plans have been watered down as many of their plans simply arent required.

I give you the fruits of green energy...your living with them today..Some say Go Big or Go Home..it is time for some reflection perhaps.

The U.K. went all in on wind power. Here’s what happens when it stops blowing

Dead calm

The situation is especially acute in the U.K., where wind is currently providing only 7% of the country’s energy makeup—a steep drop from the 25% it generated on average across 2020.

The U.K.’s offshore wind sector had been a success story of the energy transition, drastically cutting emissions by rolling out 24GW of wind power over the past decade—enough to power 7.2 million homes. But as wind slowed and the price of carbon credits rose to record highs, the electricity market has experienced extreme volatility.

“We have very steep targets for increased renewable energy penetration, and the growing problem alongside of that is this fluctuation in prices that we’re seeing,” says Finlay Clark, an offshore wind analyst from Wood Mackenzie.

 

https://fortune.com/2021/09/16/the-u-k-went-all-in-on-wind-power-never-imaging-it-would-one-day-stop-blowing/

Edited June 12, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

35 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

I give you the fruits of green energy...your living with them today..Some say Go Big or Go Home..it is time for some reflection perhaps.

The U.K. went all in on wind power. Here’s what happens when it stops blowing

Dead calm

The situation is especially acute in the U.K., where wind is currently providing only 7% of the country’s energy makeup—a steep drop from the 25% it generated on average across 2020.

The U.K.’s offshore wind sector had been a success story of the energy transition, drastically cutting emissions by rolling out 24GW of wind power over the past decade—enough to power 7.2 million homes. But as wind slowed and the price of carbon credits rose to record highs, the electricity market has experienced extreme volatility.

“We have very steep targets for increased renewable energy penetration, and the growing problem alongside of that is this fluctuation in prices that we’re seeing,” says Finlay Clark, an offshore wind analyst from Wood Mackenzie.

 

https://fortune.com/2021/09/16/the-u-k-went-all-in-on-wind-power-never-imaging-it-would-one-day-stop-blowing/

Your article is from 2021 lol 

Guess what the wind started blowing again!

The North sea is generally a pretty windy place thanks to our dear friend the Gulf Stream

C'mon EWO you can do better than this surely?

Here's one from this year!

UK sets new record for wind power generation

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/03/uk-sets-new-record-for-turbine-power-generation-after-period-of-low-wind

Enjoy!

[markslawson + 1,058]

11 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Why oh why dont you do your research instead of doing an EWO and jumping on his misguided bandwagon that renewables are expensive.

I have answered this about 30 times, so 1 last go 

THE PRICE OF ELECTRICITY IN THE UK HAS TRIPLED BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE SPIKE IN NG PRICES NOT BECAUSE OF RENEWABLES. IN FACT ITS BECAUSE WE HAVE RENEWABLES THAT THE PRICE WASNT EVEN HIGHER.

Now that NG prices have come down massively so are the electricity costs! Do you see the correlation????

Please please please stop making 2+2 = 5

Rob - sorry although gas prices increasing is certainly a (if not the) major factor, the crucial point is that the UK has considerable wind assets and they aren't rescuing Britain from the problem. In fact they are making things worse. Now that I think of it I'll start a sperate threatd on this.. hold on.. 

[Ron Wagner + 710]

14 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Why oh why dont you do your research instead of doing an EWO and jumping on his misguided bandwagon that renewables are expensive.

I have answered this about 30 times, so 1 last go 

THE PRICE OF ELECTRICITY IN THE UK HAS TRIPLED BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE SPIKE IN NG PRICES NOT BECAUSE OF RENEWABLES. IN FACT ITS BECAUSE WE HAVE RENEWABLES THAT THE PRICE WASNT EVEN HIGHER.

Now that NG prices have come down massively so are the electricity costs! Do you see the correlation????

Please please please stop making 2+2 = 5

The more fundamental reason is because Britain, and Europe as a whole, have not used their own natural resources to develop their own natural gas. Their foolish plan of buying from Russia led into them being blackmailed with high prices and claims of Russia not having enough gas supply. Apparently you do not see the true causes of things. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

4 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

The more fundamental reason is because Britain, and Europe as a whole, have not used their own natural resources to develop their own natural gas. Their foolish plan of buying from Russia led into them being blackmailed with high prices and claims of Russia not having enough gas supply. Apparently you do not see the true causes of things. 

No, no its not!

I live here Ron I'm more aware of the issues Britain has on energy supply and what has caused the spike in costs is a direct correlation to  Russian gas and the war in Ukraine. You say the fundamental reason is our reliance on Russian gas, no no and no again. The UK used to import 3% of Russian gas, yep thats all, the vast majority was from Norway. The problem with that is due to the Ukraine war it sent NG prices skyrocketing including Norwegian NG like any other supplier. Nobody was being blackmailed there was an imbargo on Russian NG so there was a massive shortage hence the massive price increases. Do you now get it?

The below is taken from this, please look at the graph

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1174560/average-monthly-gas-prices-uk/

"The average gas price in Great Britain in February 2023 was 134.54 British pence per therm. This was a notable decrease compared to the previous months with prices still impacted by developments in the Russia-Ukraine war and global natural gas demand."

You are trying to misdirect and making statements when you havent done your fact finding, as EWO was with his post that is 2 years old that the wind isnt blowing.

Why do you think the costs are now falling very quickly allied with the NG price? Surely if you're correct then prices should remain astronomical as the renewables havent gone away and they havent suddenly gotten any cheaper. If that isnt correct then please explain in detail why its all down to renewables.

To answer your point on developing our own FF then we have, 50% of the UK's NG is from domestic production. The point is there is no further economic way of drilling new fields, its far cheaper to buy NG from Norway which is the dominant exporter to the UK.

Hope that now clears that up!

 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

8 hours ago, markslawson said:

Rob - sorry although gas prices increasing is certainly a (if not the) major factor, the crucial point is that the UK has considerable wind assets and they aren't rescuing Britain from the problem. In fact they are making things worse. Now that I think of it I'll start a sperate threatd on this.. hold on.. 

Mark we wont agree on this I'm sure, but the fact (historical data) over the last year is that renewables contributed 34.9% of the powergen for the UK, FF produced 41%.

Rome wasnt built in a day but nearly 35% is no insignificant number.

How renewables are making it worse is beyond me as its relatively cheap. Intermittent yes, but a strong contributor nevertheless.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Massive Clean Energy Investments Propel China's Energy Transition

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Massive-Clean-Energy-Investments-Propel-Chinas-Energy-Transition.html

Investment in renewables tanking... hmmm let me think🤔

[markslawson + 1,058]

16 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Mark we wont agree on this I'm sure, but the fact (historical data) over the last year is that renewables contributed 34.9% of the powergen for the UK, FF produced 41%.

Rome wasnt built in a day but nearly 35% is no insignificant number.

How renewables are making it worse is beyond me as its relatively cheap. Intermittent yes, but a strong contributor nevertheless.

Rob - go and read the separate discussion thread I made on this giving the immense cost of renewables, particular offshore wind in the UK market.. it doesn't even look like they are much cheaper than gas at the moment which is saying a lot as gas is so expensive. That's what I mean when I say the transition is a waste of time. The Brits need to restart their coal plants, wind back on gas and get rid of wind entirely. That would make power cheaper. and, oh yes, dump the ideology that prevents them from developing more gas fields to cut the cost of power.. As is clear from the separate thread I started the cost of wind will never come down, however..  hope that helps clarify your thoughts on the matter.. 

Ooops .. read the separate thread I had on this matter, and in particular this paragraph.

As an example, the offshore wind farms Hornsea Two and Moray East were completed in 2022 with capital costs of £2.77 billion per GW and £2.75bn/GW, more than four times the cost of CCGT capacity. They’re expensive to maintain, which is not surprising since offshore windfarms have all their many generators mounted at the top of 200-metre tall masts far away from land. Estimates of maintenance costs are as high as £200m per GW installed, per annum. The nominal cost of offshore wind generation is £170/MWh – noticeably higher than that for CCGTs, even in these dire times of high gas prices.

In fact I misspoke about wind it may be even more expensive than gas.. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by markslawson
correcting error..

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

7 hours ago, markslawson said:

Rob - go and read the separate discussion thread I made on this giving the immense cost of renewables, particular offshore wind in the UK market.. it doesn't even look like they are much cheaper than gas at the moment which is saying a lot as gas is so expensive. That's what I mean when I say the transition is a waste of time. The Brits need to restart their coal plants, wind back on gas and get rid of wind entirely. That would make power cheaper. and, oh yes, dump the ideology that prevents them from developing more gas fields to cut the cost of power.. As is clear from the separate thread I started the cost of wind will never come down, however..  hope that helps clarify your thoughts on the matter.. 

Ooops .. read the separate thread I had on this matter, and in particular this paragraph.

As an example, the offshore wind farms Hornsea Two and Moray East were completed in 2022 with capital costs of £2.77 billion per GW and £2.75bn/GW, more than four times the cost of CCGT capacity. They’re expensive to maintain, which is not surprising since offshore windfarms have all their many generators mounted at the top of 200-metre tall masts far away from land. Estimates of maintenance costs are as high as £200m per GW installed, per annum. The nominal cost of offshore wind generation is £170/MWh – noticeably higher than that for CCGTs, even in these dire times of high gas prices.

In fact I misspoke about wind it may be even more expensive than gas.. 

Told you we wouldnt agree Mark lol

The below extract from this article from July last year

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/08/price-offshore-wind-power-falls-cheapest-ever-level-uk

Offshore windfarm operators will sell power for as little as £37.35 per megawatt hour, 5.8% below the lowest bid in the most recent auction in 2019.

The “contracts for difference” guarantee wind-power companies fixed prices to sell electricity for the following 15 years. If the market price falls below the contract price, the government subsidises the difference. If the market is higher, the companies pay money back to the government.

The UK last year paid on average £172.56/MWh mainly due to the exhorbitant gas prices.

I think your numbers are wildly exaggerated regarding costs per MWh and the maintenance of wind farms. Maybe you have looked at very old data??

The maintenance of a coal station does not just centre around the gas and steam turbines, you have boilers and the associated pipework which is actually the most expensive part of the plant, water jackets and huge pipe hangers, steam chests, reheaters, cooling systems, generators etc etc. There are far more things on a CCGT plant to maintain than on a wind farm and that comes at a price. See link below

https://www.tycoonstory.com/an-overview-of-components-and-maintenance-of-combined-cycle-power-plants/

Anyway the UK generated on average 350MWh per day or 1.2% of the UK's powergen's need. There is no way we are going back to coal, in fact the infrastructure doesnt exist anymore to do it even if we wanted to.

Hope that clears that up for you.