markslawson + 1,057 ML May 24 The e-car industry does not need more bad news, but it keeps coming anyway. I've linked a series of videos which tell a grim story. The real mystery in this is why governments are still insisting on targets when its obvious that the bulk of consumers won't buy these things. Arguably the bulk of the non-rich, non-green consumers (most of the market) had little interest in EVs before this as the vehicles had no market edge and major disadvantages. Now with all the horror stories emerging from the sector - minor damage to the battery casing costing many thousands of dollars in repairs, software problems, difficulties in finding chargers, high maintenance costs and so on - they are even less likely to go near them. Other posters on this forum may try to argue that some of the stories are unfair and/or teething problems with new technology, or happen to petrol cars but that it to miss the point. The horror stories are out there and e-cars have a huge image problem, and it is difficult to see how that bad image can be fixed inside of several decades. Dealers CAN’T SELL EVs Anymore, So Now They're DUMPING THEM! Why EV Sales Are Plunging: The Real Reason Revealed! Electric Vehicles & Market Performance! Broken EVs Head Straight to Junkyards As Repair Costs Are Unbearable! 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM May 26 (edited) On 5/24/2024 at 1:44 AM, markslawson said: The e-car industry does not need more bad news, but it keeps coming anyway. I've linked a series of videos which tell a grim story. The real mystery in this is why governments are still insisting on targets when its obvious that the bulk of consumers won't buy these things. Arguably the bulk of the non-rich, non-green consumers (most of the market) had little interest in EVs before this as the vehicles had no market edge and major disadvantages. Now with all the horror stories emerging from the sector - minor damage to the battery casing costing many thousands of dollars in repairs, software problems, difficulties in finding chargers, high maintenance costs and so on - they are even less likely to go near them. Other posters on this forum may try to argue that some of the stories are unfair and/or teething problems with new technology, or happen to petrol cars but that it to miss the point. The horror stories are out there and e-cars have a huge image problem, and it is difficult to see how that bad image can be fixed inside of several decades. Dealers CAN’T SELL EVs Anymore, So Now They're DUMPING THEM! Why EV Sales Are Plunging: The Real Reason Revealed! Electric Vehicles & Market Performance! Broken EVs Head Straight to Junkyards As Repair Costs Are Unbearable! reconcile your posts with reality before you post them as you are making a fool of yourself when you do not pay attention to reality China is booming in EVs and they are booming in low cost EVs.......coming to your local dealer soon https://www.marklines.com/en/report/statistics_evsales_202404 Electric Vehicle (BEV/PHV/FCV) Sales Monthly Report (April 2024) Electric vehicle sales in April increase 27.2% y/y to 1,026,000 units Sales of electric vehicles in the 12 major countries and the 3 Nordic countries of Norway, Sweden, and Finland (15 countries in total) reached 1.026 million units in April. Year-over-year (y/y), the number of units sold increased by 27.2% The market share of electric vehicles was 21.0% in April, a further increase of 1.3 points over the previous month. Sales volumes of electric vehicles by country (000 units) Country 2023 2024 Apr. Apr. China 518 706 US 116 127 Germany 41 45 12 more rows • 2 days ago Electric Vehicle (BEV/PHV/FCV) Sales Monthly Report (April ... MarkLines https://www.marklines.com › ... › Market & Tech Reports Edited May 26 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,057 ML May 27 Here is some material on the Chinese EV sales figures. Like almost any official statistic in China they owe much to the party system. YouTube Blogger Uncovers Fake EV Boom in China Are Chinese Lying About EV Sales? As you'll see from the articles no-one is sure of the degree of exaggeration. It is not I who is making a fool of himself. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 27 (edited) 8 minutes ago, markslawson said: Here is some material on the Chinese EV sales figures. Like almost any official statistic in China they owe much to the party system. YouTube Blogger Uncovers Fake EV Boom in China Are Chinese Lying About EV Sales? As you'll see from the articles no-one is sure of the degree of exaggeration. It is not I who is making a fool of himself. You read blogs and watch youtube. You live in an echo-chamber of fellow EV haters. You do realize anyone can make a youtube video saying stupid things, right? Edited May 27 by TailingsPond 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187 May 27 (edited) China calls an electric vehicle, anything with 4 wheels and a battery. Nowhere else describes a golf cart + battery as an electric vehicle; China does. No one wants a tiny death trap vehicle: No ONE, yet EV forces vehicles to be made tiny by and large. No ONE wants a vehicle requiring an hour to "fuel" under OPTIMAL circumstances, let alone if someone is filling the stall and you have to WAIT. NO ONE. No ONE wants a vehicle which if you drive over debris and get a small hole in the undercarriage is totaled: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle where half its range is lost due to cold weather: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle when the battery dies YOU get locked in: NO ONE <<Cough Tesla trash>> No ONE wants a vehicle they have to use a damned PHONE/AP to pay for your charging: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle you cannot replace parts and keep it running:NO ONE No ONE with a functioning brain wants a vehicle which becomes a lump of lead when the power goes out due to natural disaster or in the case of Ukraine: A war: NO ONE, yet that is EXACTLY what will happen if vehicles go electric: One EMP and you have to surrender autmoatically. You do not need a nuclear bomb for an EMP attack either, yet this is where our religious political whore overlorrds are taking us. Edited May 27 by footeab@yahoo.com 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM May 27 (edited) Nowhere else describes a golf cart + battery as an electric vehicle; China does. ???? footinthemouth how is your grand tunnelling scheme going these days??????? When is your first hole in the ground going to happen????? golf carts?????? remember the good old days when the Big 3 laughed at the compact Japaneses imports ...termed Jap Crap in the 70's and 80's ....turned out to be better quality, lower priced, ,and better fuel economy. In the end GM went bankrupt trying to sell low quality clunkers....and Chrysler was in with the clunker party....Government bailouts recalls forever...does anyone buy GM cars today????? China EVs pretty sporty looking golf carts...and the acceleration ...... 0 to 60 in less than 5 seconds... Footinthemouth how fast is your crappy clunker?? 0 to 60 in 10 seconds?????? can your clunker even get to 60 MPH???? The time it takes for a BYD vehicle to go from 0 to 60 miles per hour (mph) varies by model: BYD Atto 3: Can go from 0 to 60 mph in 7.1 seconds BYD Tang: Can go from 0 to 60 mph in 4.5 seconds BYD e-platform 3.0: Can go from 0 to 60 mph in 2.9 seconds BYD Han: Can go from 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds BYD Seal: The standard model can go from 0 to 100 kilometers per hour (km/h) in around 7.5 seconds, while the AWD Performance model can do it in 3.8 seconds BYD Yangwang U9: An upcoming supercar that can go from 0 to 62 mph in 2 seconds BYD Dolphin: Estimated to go from 0 to 60 mph in 10.5 seconds Edited May 27 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: China calls an electric vehicle, anything with 4 wheels and a battery. Nowhere else describes a golf cart + battery as an electric vehicle; China does. No one wants a tiny death trap vehicle: No ONE, yet EV forces vehicles to be made tiny by and large. No ONE wants a vehicle requiring an hour to "fuel" under OPTIMAL circumstances, let alone if someone is filling the stall and you have to WAIT. NO ONE. No ONE wants a vehicle which if you drive over debris and get a small hole in the undercarriage is totaled: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle where half its range is lost due to cold weather: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle when the battery dies YOU get locked in: NO ONE <<Cough Tesla trash>> No ONE wants a vehicle they have to use a damned PHONE/AP to pay for your charging: NO ONE No ONE wants a vehicle you cannot replace parts and keep it running:NO ONE No ONE with a functioning brain wants a vehicle which becomes a lump of lead when the power goes out due to natural disaster or in the case of Ukraine: A war: NO ONE, yet that is EXACTLY what will happen if vehicles go electric: One EMP and you have to surrender autmoatically. You do not need a nuclear bomb for an EMP attack either, yet this is where our religious political whore overlorrds are taking us. No one you say? Clearly many, many people have bought EV's. Your "no one" argument is pretty silly. Also most of your other downsides are not true. To sell a vehicle in north America it has to meet safety standards. Lot of cars (ICE included) have crumple zones instead of being a tank to meet those standards, but they still have to meet those standards. You also ignore things called warranties and insurance. Feel free to drive heavy, ugly, beater cars - most people do not want to drive those. Modern ICE cars are full of computers, you have to drive something really, really old to protect you from your EMP paranoia. It would only take a few strikes to take out pipelines and refineries. Gas stations will not be open without electricity. ICE are not immune to terror or war. Maybe use a horse luddite. Edited May 27 by TailingsPond 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM May 27 (edited) Number 1 battery maker ..........and working on becoming number 1 car maker.........and the price of their cars........ Only protectionism can keep ICE car companies afloat ....but for how long???? Financial Times BYD targets overtaking Tesla as top electric vehicle seller in Europe by 2030 Chinese carmaker plans multibillion-euro investment into factories, marketing and dealers. . 2 weeks ago The top three battery makers (CATL, BYD, LG) collectively account for two-thirds (66%) of total battery deployment. Once a leader in the EV battery business, Panasonic now holds the fourth position with an 8% market share, down from 9% last year.Apr 22, 2024 Ranked: The Top 10 EV Battery Manufacturers in 2023 Edited May 27 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM May 27 does not look like BYD is suffering........Australia is so close to China..........Mark are you paying attention???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,057 ML May 27 5 hours ago, TailingsPond said: You read blogs and watch youtube. You live in an echo-chamber of fellow EV haters. You do realize anyone can make a youtube video saying stupid things, right? I don't hate EVs. I'm simply trying to introduce some reality into a debate where activists have got the idea that they are going to dominate the market when clearly it isn't going to happen. Anyway, as your counter-arguments amount to simple abuse, I'll leave it with you. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,057 ML May 27 4 hours ago, notsonice said: does not look like BYD is suffering........Australia is so close to China..........Mark are you paying attention???? Notsonice - as I pointed out further up in this discussion chain, no one knows the extent of the fabrication in the Chinese sales figures which are included in your graph, for BYD. Tesla's sales figures would be right, but take a look at the graph you present. See how it is beginning to flatten out? In any case, Tesla is acknowledged to be a different segment of the market where there are still rich buyers who may be green conscious but also like to have a Tesla in the drive way to advertise that they are rich and green-virtuous. Maybe they might even drive it. No matter how you cut it the EV market is in trouble. Look at the material I posted for this thread. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,747 RP May 28 Mark would you buy a safe brand new EV for £8K ($10K)? New BYD Seagull will come to the UK in 2025 to rival the Dacia Spring | Auto Express Ok they are going to modify it for the UK market but its still going to be ridiculously cheap unless they add a load of duty onto it. A car this cheap is for the masses and the only thing holding it back will be the amount they can produce and ship over, not persuading people to buy one. The average price of a small car in the UK is £19-25K Average Cost of Cars UK 2024 | NimbleFins Again you live in the past! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,535 May 28 On 5/26/2024 at 8:45 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said: No ONE with a functioning brain wants a vehicle which becomes a lump of lead when the power goes out due to natural disaster or in the case of Ukraine: A war: NO ONE, yet that is EXACTLY what will happen if vehicles go electric: One EMP and you have to surrender autmoatically. You do not need a nuclear bomb for an EMP attack either, yet this is where our religious political whore overlorrds are taking us. How long will a refinery (or pipeline, for that matter) still operate after an EMP attack? How long will the food in millions of freezers/refrigerators last after an EMP attack? How well will any commercial aircraft "perform" after an EMP attack. How well will a diesel locomotive/railroad management perform after an EMP attack? How well would a BANK operate after an EMP attack? 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL May 28 On 5/26/2024 at 2:27 PM, notsonice said: reconcile your posts with reality before you post them as you are making a fool of yourself when you do not pay attention to reality China is booming in EVs and they are booming in low cost EVs.......coming to your local dealer soon https://www.marklines.com/en/report/statistics_evsales_202404 Electric Vehicle (BEV/PHV/FCV) Sales Monthly Report (April 2024) Electric vehicle sales in April increase 27.2% y/y to 1,026,000 units Sales of electric vehicles in the 12 major countries and the 3 Nordic countries of Norway, Sweden, and Finland (15 countries in total) reached 1.026 million units in April. Year-over-year (y/y), the number of units sold increased by 27.2% The market share of electric vehicles was 21.0% in April, a further increase of 1.3 points over the previous month. Sales volumes of electric vehicles by country (000 units) Country 2023 2024 Apr. Apr. China 518 706 US 116 127 Germany 41 45 12 more rows • 2 days ago Electric Vehicle (BEV/PHV/FCV) Sales Monthly Report (April ... MarkLines https://www.marklines.com › ... › Market & Tech Reports Your data is skewed again...it includes fossil fuel vehicles in the totals, which means that you need to disaggregate the BEV component to show anything of interest. Funny how you keep missing this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL May 28 On 5/26/2024 at 10:59 PM, TailingsPond said: No one you say? Clearly many, many people have bought EV's. Your "no one" argument is pretty silly. Also most of your other downsides are not true. To sell a vehicle in north America it has to meet safety standards. Lot of cars (ICE included) have crumple zones instead of being a tank to meet those standards, but they still have to meet those standards. You also ignore things called warranties and insurance. Feel free to drive heavy, ugly, beater cars - most people do not want to drive those. Modern ICE cars are full of computers, you have to drive something really, really old to protect you from your EMP paranoia. It would only take a few strikes to take out pipelines and refineries. Gas stations will not be open without electricity. ICE are not immune to terror or war. Maybe use a horse luddite. Insurance for EVs? Companies are running away from those. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL May 28 4 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Mark would you buy a safe brand new EV for £8K ($10K)? New BYD Seagull will come to the UK in 2025 to rival the Dacia Spring | Auto Express Ok they are going to modify it for the UK market but its still going to be ridiculously cheap unless they add a load of duty onto it. A car this cheap is for the masses and the only thing holding it back will be the amount they can produce and ship over, not persuading people to buy one. The average price of a small car in the UK is £19-25K Average Cost of Cars UK 2024 | NimbleFins Again you live in the past! You like go-karts? That is what you will get for those cheap prices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 28 3 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Insurance for EVs? Companies are running away from those. Once again you are being ignorant or purposely deceptive. Expensive cars have been around for a very long time and they still got insured. If you can get insurance on a $100,000 ICE sports car why would they refuse to insure a $50,000 EV? You make no sense. The companies would also lose a large fraction of potential customers. If you have yet to see a a whole bunch of Teslas driving around you must live in a very poor area. I see several insured EVs with my own eyes everyday. The major cost to insurance companies are not vehicle repairs - it is paying out for injuries. They are much more likely to cut off the old ICE beaters with no airbags, worn parts, etc. than new EV's. Around here if your car is over 10 years old it must pass an inspection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL May 29 (edited) 3 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Once again you are being ignorant or purposely deceptive. Expensive cars have been around for a very long time and they still got insured. If you can get insurance on a $100,000 ICE sports car why would they refuse to insure a $50,000 EV? You make no sense. The companies would also lose a large fraction of potential customers. If you have yet to see a a whole bunch of Teslas driving around you must live in a very poor area. I see several insured EVs with my own eyes everyday. The major cost to insurance companies are not vehicle repairs - it is paying out for injuries. They are much more likely to cut off the old ICE beaters with no airbags, worn parts, etc. than new EV's. Around here if your car is over 10 years old it must pass an inspection. Nah, EV insurance is higher than fossil fuel auto insurance. Tesla insurance is currently available in only 11 underpopulated states. https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/insurance-services/electric-vehicle-insurance/ "The average cost to insure a Tesla Model 3 is $3,209. It can be more expensive to insure than other EVs because of the higher costs of the car and repairs. You can buy electric car insurance from Tesla directly, or you can buy it from one of the biggest car insurance companies, like Travelers, Geico, USAA or State Farm." "Currently, Tesla car insurance is available in: Colorado Oregon Texas Ohio Arizona Illinois Maryland Utah Nevada Virginia Minnesota" Edited May 29 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 29 1 hour ago, Ecocharger said: Nah, EV insurance is higher than fossil fuel auto insurance. https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/insurance-services/electric-vehicle-insurance/ Backtracking already. You can insure a EV anywhere. A quote from the link you posted. You always cherry pick small portions of articles. It straight out says you can get affordable EV insurance. "Yet, if you bundle multiple policies, choose a provider with EV discounts like Traveler’s and shop around, you’ll be able to secure affordable electric vehicle insurance." Oh look they also disagree with a whole bunch of your other ideas. Thanks for posting that! Why Should You Drive an Electric Vehicle? There are many benefits gained from driving an EV, such as: Energy Independence With an EV, you won’t have to make trips to the gas station. Instead, you’ll find charging stations (many department stores, grocery stores and malls have them) or you can install one in your garage. Reduced Emissions If you’re worried about your carbon footprint, an EV is the way to go. Electric vehicles don’t produce tailpipe emissions, unlike their combustion engine counterparts. This results in cleaner air for you and others to breathe. Reduced Maintenance With electronic vehicles, you won’t have to contend with the fluctuating prices of gas. You can say goodbye to oil changes, replacing gaskets and more maintenance tasks. Tax Incentives If you buy an electric vehicle and it qualifies for federal tax credits, you can earn up to $7,500 to apply to your tax return. Also, many manufacturers offer incentives to drive down your vehicle’s MSRP. Longer Operating Life The National Renewable Energy Laboratory found that batteries in some electric vehicles last 12 to 15 years under normal conditions. This means fewer replacement costs and a longer life of ownership, which can reduce your need to buy vehicles in the future. Electric Vehicle Insurance: The Bottom Line Electric vehicles continue to grow in popularity. It’s no surprise, given you don’t have to pay for fuel, have lower emissions and receive tax incentives (for qualifying vehicles) to lower your out-of-pocket costs. Insuring higher-valued EVs like Teslas will cost you more than gas-powered vehicles. Yet, if you bundle multiple policies, choose a provider with EV discounts like Traveler’s and shop around, you’ll be able to secure affordable electric vehicle insurance. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187 May 29 9 hours ago, turbguy said: How long will a refinery (or pipeline, for that matter) still operate after an EMP attack? How long will the food in millions of freezers/refrigerators last after an EMP attack? How well will any commercial aircraft "perform" after an EMP attack. How well will a diesel locomotive/railroad management perform after an EMP attack? How well would a BANK operate after an EMP attack? Aircraft after EMP just fine, they are built for it.... And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Pipeline/Refinery, depends which parts. And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Refrigerators/freezers will continue to function just fine they are mechanical: And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Locomotive: Haven't been inside one, but since their tech is ancient, probably just fine as just like ~older cars their transistor size is huge and ~fairly EMP proof: And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Banks? Poor babies, have to revert to cash and a thing called paper for a short while. And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Thanks for you humorous reply, made me laugh. Had nothing better to do tonight than to read some idiotic illogical rant 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187 May 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ecocharger said: Nah, EV insurance is higher than fossil fuel auto insurance. Tesla insurance is currently available in only 11 underpopulated states. https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/insurance-services/electric-vehicle-insurance/ "The average cost to insure a Tesla Model 3 is $3,209. It can be more expensive to insure than other EVs because of the higher costs of the car and repairs. You can buy electric car insurance from Tesla directly, or you can buy it from one of the biggest car insurance companies, like Travelers, Geico, USAA or State Farm." "Currently, Tesla car insurance is available in: Colorado Oregon Texas Ohio Arizona Illinois Maryland Utah Nevada Virginia Minnesota" Who the F' is going to pay over $3k in insurance. How DUMB are people? Mine is $350 Of course I am not so gullible and STUPID as to buy "full coverage" so called "insurance" Edited May 29 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 29 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Mine is $350 Of course I am not so gullible and STUPID as to buy "full coverage" so called "insurance" How much is your car worth? Heck, just tell use the year, make, and model of your primary vehicle. You seem proud of your choices so why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 671 GE May 29 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Aircraft after EMP just fine, they are built for it.... And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Pipeline/Refinery, depends which parts. And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Refrigerators/freezers will continue to function just fine they are mechanical: And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Locomotive: Haven't been inside one, but since their tech is ancient, probably just fine as just like ~older cars their transistor size is huge and ~fairly EMP proof: And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Banks? Poor babies, have to revert to cash and a thing called paper for a short while. And buddy ol' pal, why are you assuming giant area for EMP? Can you not read what I wrote? Thanks for you humorous reply, made me laugh. Had nothing better to do tonight than to read some idiotic illogical rant So all the power plants still run and everyone has electricity. So what it the problem with EV's again? Cash? How much of that do you have on hand? You might need to visit a non-working ATM for more... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,747 RP May 30 On 5/28/2024 at 8:43 PM, Ecocharger said: You like go-karts? That is what you will get for those cheap prices. Small cars in the UK are the most popular as they are more economic, cheaper to run, cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain, easier to park, and generally better for short journey commutes which is the vast majority. You and others have been saying EV's are too expensive for the masses, this type of car proves you wrong and will attract a massive demand for them as they are considerably cheaper than their ICE counterparts. A four seater car albeit compact is fine for most on short journeys, why do you need a massive car? That's what the vast majority of people will be thinking and that's what they'll be buying! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,747 RP May 30 On 5/29/2024 at 3:22 AM, Ecocharger said: Nah, EV insurance is higher than fossil fuel auto insurance. Tesla insurance is currently available in only 11 underpopulated states. https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/insurance-services/electric-vehicle-insurance/ "The average cost to insure a Tesla Model 3 is $3,209. It can be more expensive to insure than other EVs because of the higher costs of the car and repairs. You can buy electric car insurance from Tesla directly, or you can buy it from one of the biggest car insurance companies, like Travelers, Geico, USAA or State Farm." "Currently, Tesla car insurance is available in: Colorado Oregon Texas Ohio Arizona Illinois Maryland Utah Nevada Virginia Minnesota" Running costs are way cheaper though especially in Europe where gas (petrol) is 2.1/2 times the price it is in the USA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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