Could EVs Become Cheaper than ICE Cars by 2023?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

20 hours ago, Brian Flippo said:

...and horses were cheaper than automobiles too, until they weren't. The cost to produce and distribute an electric vehicle is projected to be equivalent to the ICE by 2025.  Source: Bloomberg New Energy Finance Study.

I might buy one at $13,000. 

[DA? + 301]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I hope Tesla makes it. Do they allow other EVs to use their chargers?

Tesla has offered them for other manufactures but none want to, which is probably one of the reasons why Tesla out sells them all by so much.

[markslawson + 1,042]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:29 AM, NickW said:

The research was about indoor air quality conditions where CO2 levels routinely exceed 1000ppm and more so it was quite relevant as regards cognitive skills as most study, research and indeed work is carried out in indoor environments. The research itself had nothing to do with atmospheric build up of CO2.

You realise you're contradicting your earlier arguments. This research is not relevant at all to climate so why was it dragged in in the first place? 1000 ppm won't be reached for decades if at all ..

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:29 AM, NickW said:

On the issue of atmospheric accumulation of CO2 once the Oceans become saturated atmospheric levels will rocket. 

 That's basically activist speculation. Another interpretation is that the warming oceans have expelled more CO2 into the atmosphere, but in any case all anyone can point is to tracks like the Mauna Loa measurements .. Bear in mind that you're dealing with oceans and that at 400 ppm CO2 is a trace gas .. anyway, I broke my rule about responding more than once. You scored a minor victory before you should be happy with that. Leave it with you.   

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

14 hours ago, ronwagn said:

We drive around California a lot and haven't seen any. We saw the Tesla plant in our travels. The only ones I  have seen were in Yellowstone National Park. They had about 12 but no electric cars. I have also seen a couple at a raft and kayak facility on the Pigeon River in eastern Tennessee. Not EVs though. The Tesla map shows a lot of dots but there are probably a lot of Teslas per dot. The more the better. I hope Tesla makes it. Do they allow other EVs to use their chargers?

The ones I saw on the internet were rather nondescript and mostly in closed out gas stations or fast food buildings.  It seemed to me that Tesla didn't feel the need to advertise them, yet.  But, if their customers didn't have the app, they wouldn't be able to find them either.  That will change.

[Rodent + 1,424]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/2112539002

So it would appear that GM is making a move toward hybrids and zero emission vehicles. 

Canada just can't catch a break. If it's not shooting itself in the foot somebody else is doing it for them. 

Although I suspect there is a bit more going on here than GM wanting to make a switch to focus on hybrids. Thoughts?

[DA? + 301]

26 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

The ones I saw on the internet were rather nondescript and mostly in closed out gas stations or fast food buildings.  It seemed to me that Tesla didn't feel the need to advertise them, yet.  But, if their customers didn't have the app, they wouldn't be able to find them either.  That will change.

You just need to pull the information up on the screen in the car.

 

2 minutes ago, Rodent said:

Although I suspect there is a bit more going on here than GM wanting to make a switch to focus on hybrids. Thoughts?

GM so far haven't got serious, although hybrids are out dated now. It's going to be the flip of the coin to see if ford or GM go bust first.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

9 minutes ago, Rodent said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/2112539002

So it would appear that GM is making a move toward hybrids and zero emission vehicles. 

Canada just can't catch a break. If it's not shooting itself in the foot somebody else is doing it for them. 

Although I suspect there is a bit more going on here than GM wanting to make a switch to focus on hybrids. Thoughts?

Those folks at GM seem to be making a bundle of errors, although from what I've been reading around here the Canadians seem to be bringing on the death knell for themselves in both energy and industry.  Sad.  I've got a bunch of relatives and friends up there and they are all kind of like "what the hell can we do?".

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

Ramping up the production of Model 3 allowed Tesla to take the lead in the worldwide EV market with a 12% market share. Tesla is closely followed by Chinese car and battery manufacturer BYD (11%) and the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi alliance (10%).

But given the number of chinese manufacturers and the high volume of sales in China (in October 5,8% of the cars sold in China were EVs) close to half of the EVs sold in the world are Chinese cars.

In terms of brands origin:

• China: 47%
• U.S. 16%
• Germany: 16%
• Japan: 10%
• South Korea (4%)

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

39 minutes ago, DA? said:

You just need to pull the information up on the screen in the car.

Here is how it looks on screen with the "EV Trip Planner" tool :

Edited November 26, 2018 by Guillaume Albasini

[NickW + 2,714]

13 hours ago, markslawson said:

You realise you're contradicting your earlier arguments. This research is not relevant at all to climate so why was it dragged in in the first place? 1000 ppm won't be reached for decades if at all ..

 That's basically activist speculation. Another interpretation is that the warming oceans have expelled more CO2 into the atmosphere, but in any case all anyone can point is to tracks like the Mauna Loa measurements .. Bear in mind that you're dealing with oceans and that at 400 ppm CO2 is a trace gas .. anyway, I broke my rule about responding more than once. You scored a minor victory before you should be happy with that. Leave it with you.   

On the contrary I have been consistent all the way. 

My first response was to a comment that 'CO2 is not a poison' to which I replied that above a certain concentration it is deadly. 

My second comment was that negative effects of CO2 in atmosphere have been observed in levels as low as 1000ppm. Those negative effects are primarily effects on cognitive function. This is proven in repeatable experimentation. 

 

As for the rest about 'activist speculation'  ........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[NickW + 2,714]

ocean acidity and CO2

https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/ocean-acidification

[ronwagn + 6,290]

14 hours ago, Rodent said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/2112539002

So it would appear that GM is making a move toward hybrids and zero emission vehicles. 

Canada just can't catch a break. If it's not shooting itself in the foot somebody else is doing it for them. 

Although I suspect there is a bit more going on here than GM wanting to make a switch to focus on hybrids. Thoughts?

GM is falling on its behind. It was rebuilt as Government Motors thanks to Obama and the American people. It is now closing several American plants and saving foreign ones. This will get around pretty quickly and many people will abandon GM IMHO. I looked at small GM sedans recently and found them to be typical GM nondescript vehicles that were not cost competitive with the competition. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

GM is falling on its behind. It was rebuilt as Government Motors thanks to Obama and the American people. It is now closing several American plants and saving foreign ones. This will get around pretty quickly and many people will abandon GM IMHO. I looked at small GM sedans recently and found them to be typical GM nondescript vehicles that were not cost competitive with the competition. 

If the underlined portion (my underline) of your comment is presented on the nightly news in the Midwest, a lot of people will abandon GM as soon as they can.  Those people vote with their wallets and U.S. workers are at the top of their list.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

14 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

If the underlined portion (my underline) of your comment is presented on the nightly news in the Midwest, a lot of people will abandon GM as soon as they can.  Those people vote with their wallets and U.S. workers are at the top of their list.

@Barry Allen 

Which part of the comment(s) do you feel worthy of your down vote?  If you have something to say, say it.  We like to discuss all angles around here.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:44 PM, NickW said:

ocean acidity and CO2

https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/ocean-acidification

Most rise would be due to coal use, volcanic eruptions, forest fires etc. 

[NickW + 2,714]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Most rise would be due to coal use, volcanic eruptions, forest fires etc. 

Coal use yes.

Forest fires - No . Fires are part of the natural cycle so effectively carbon neutral in the medium- long term. 

Volcanoes - No. This is a classic deniers false comment along the lines of St Helens produced more CO2 than the whole world in 100 years. In reality Volcanic activity produces approx 250-400 mt of Co2 per annum (6 months equivalent that the Uk produces) whiich is balanced out in the medium / long term by Carbon subduction at the plate boundaries. 

[catch22 + 244]

Heard a nice little quote the other day -  "climate change may or may not be true - but what if we saved the world for nothing?"

great huh?

Can vouch for the ocean acidity problem here personally...  where i live, off the coast lies the northern great barrier reef and its in pretty poor condition these days due to coral bleaching, warm water temps and higher acidity are the main causes. I love diving on the reef but sadly it looks nothing like it did when i was a kid 30 years ago... such a shame my kids wont see it as i did

Anyways, off to start up my air conditioner powered by coal fired power plants as the australian government makes far too much money selling coal and is too short sighted to invest in alternatives... oh wait a minute, i guess its the same for most other countries too!

[Rodent + 1,424]

On 11/6/2018 at 9:47 AM, Refman said:

Internal Combustion engines are pretty complex devices, especially the newer ones with 4 valves per cylinder, turbo charging and fuel injection. Then you have all the plumbing for the fuel system, and the exhaust system. A modern automatic transmission is also pretty darn complex as well.

I am pretty sure that EV's will be price competitive (without subsidies) with the average car by 2023. When you take into account maintenance and fuel prices they are probably pretty close already.

One of our vehicles is a Honda Civic. We have had it for a few years now, and it has well over 100,000 miles. Do you know how much money we have spent in maintenance on this vehicle? Nothing other than oil changes.

[Refman + 207]

41 minutes ago, Rodent said:

One of our vehicles is a Honda Civic. We have had it for a few years now, and it has well over 100,000 miles. Do you know how much money we have spent in maintenance on this vehicle? Nothing other than oil changes.

Rodent - you've got a keeper with that car. We have an Acura that is similar, but also have an F150 with 155,000 miles that has needed intake manifold gasket replaced, rear main seal replaced, and two brake jobs, which amounted to several thousand dollars. The truck cost $22K out the door in 2004, and since then I've put about $20K worth of gas in the vehicle (using 17mpg and gas at $2.25)

I firmly believe that EV's will replace ICE vehicles in the (relatively near) future. They are simpler, more efficient and cheaper to run. Currently the downsides are high upfront cost, somewhat limited range and charging, all three of which are steadily improving. Now that some of the big auto manufacturers are getting onboard we should see progress increase even faster.

 

 

 

[D Coyne + 305]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 5:33 PM, ronwagn said:

We drive around California a lot and haven't seen any. We saw the Tesla plant in our travels. The only ones I  have seen were in Yellowstone National Park. They had about 12 but no electric cars. I have also seen a couple at a raft and kayak facility on the Pigeon River in eastern Tennessee. Not EVs though. The Tesla map shows a lot of dots but there are probably a lot of Teslas per dot. The more the better. I hope Tesla makes it. Do they allow other EVs to use their chargers?

The Tesla chargers can only be used by a Tesla.  I own a Model 3 (got it in early Oct).  So far the lowest temperature I have experienced is 12 F and the car worked fine.  In extremely cold conditions range is reduced, by maybe 15 to 20% (depending upon how warmly one dresses in the winter, shorts and a tee shirt at 0F, will probably require higher heat levels and reduce range more, I dress warmly and minimize use of the heater (just enough to keep windows clear).  Parking overnight without being plugged in is a bit of a problem as the battery is used a bit to keep the battery warm, parking at an airport for a week during the winter would probably drain the battery to zero if not plugged in, but for most uses it works fine.

I have used a supercharger only twice and they are quite fast from 20% to 80% (62 miles of range to 248 miles of range) in about 25 minutes, just grab some lunch while charging, it might be slower in winter, it was 50 F the two times I tried it.

The car has been a lot of fun so far.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, catch22 said:

Heard a nice little quote the other day -  "climate change may or may not be true - but what if we saved the world for nothing?"

great huh?

Can vouch for the ocean acidity problem here personally...  where i live, off the coast lies the northern great barrier reef and its in pretty poor condition these days due to coral bleaching, warm water temps and higher acidity are the main causes. I love diving on the reef but sadly it looks nothing like it did when i was a kid 30 years ago... such a shame my kids wont see it as i did

Anyways, off to start up my air conditioner powered by coal fired power plants as the australian government makes far too much money selling coal and is too short sighted to invest in alternatives... oh wait a minute, i guess its the same for most other countries too!

Hi Catch.  Nice to see you back.  I hope all is ok?

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

34 minutes ago, D Coyne said:

The Tesla chargers can only be used by a Tesla.  I own a Model 3 (got it in early Oct).  So far the lowest temperature I have experienced is 12 F and the car worked fine.  In extremely cold conditions range is reduced, by maybe 15 to 20% (depending upon how warmly one dresses in the winter, shorts and a tee shirt at 0F, will probably require higher heat levels and reduce range more, I dress warmly and minimize use of the heater (just enough to keep windows clear).  Parking overnight without being plugged in is a bit of a problem as the battery is used a bit to keep the battery warm, parking at an airport for a week during the winter would probably drain the battery to zero if not plugged in, but for most uses it works fine.

I have used a supercharger only twice and they are quite fast from 20% to 80% (62 miles of range to 248 miles of range) in about 25 minutes, just grab some lunch while charging, it might be slower in winter, it was 50 F the two times I tried it.

The car has been a lot of fun so far.

Wow!  Real world information.  Around here!  Thanks for that, and thanks for leaving the judging to the reader.  I like that.

[catch22 + 244]

5 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hi Catch.  Nice to see you back.  I hope all is ok?

 

Just stopping in from time to time dan, we lost mum a couple days ago so lots of things to sort out, wont be trading for a while... not all is bad however, in death there are new beginnings and new life, as it happens im getting married next week and we are expecting a baby in april

Bitter sweet comes to mind...

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

8 minutes ago, catch22 said:

Just stopping in from time to time dan, we lost mum a couple days ago so lots of things to sort out, wont be trading for a while... not all is bad however, in death there are new beginnings and new life, as it happens im getting married next week and we are expecting a baby in april

Bitter sweet comes to mind...

Sorry to hear that.  And glad to hear you are finding your way through it all.

Congrats on your upcoming marriage, and baby in late Spring!

Bitter sweet, indeed.

[Janet Alderton + 124]

On 11/10/2018 at 9:01 AM, Danial Gable said:

   Your out of the loop. If your same argument was used 100 years ago, we would all still be riding horses. Once a revolutionary technology replaces an outdated, toxic and expensive technology, there is no going back, and thats where we are with the gas vs electric. I agree however, that with over roughly 1.5 billion internal combustion engines, the transition will take time.  I have followed the electric car market since the time of the roadster. If you dont know this car, then you are out of the loop.  In the early stages, basically 10 years ago, all of the critics doubted Musk and his vision even though simultaneously Chinese companies like BYD were already exploring electric cars as well. 

Already about 5 years ago BMW was noting that the manufacturing process of electric cars was cheaper and more efficient, and more then likely they would be transiting. Early on in Fords transition,the company proclaimed they were going hydrogen,in the face of the lithium movement, well it wasn't but two years later they had transitioned to electric with lithium. Jaguar, Mercedes, Chevy volt, Toyota, VW,Audi and every other car makers are rolling out Electric cars.

Another important point,especially for someone who cant see the future of EVs, is this, and i had to pull something from the National library of medicine just to properly make my point.  In my words, because burning fuel is so brutally poisonous, the greatness of mankind will overcome this...to put it more scientifically-         "Carbon monoxide has 210 times greater affinity for haemoglobin than oxygen¹. A small environmental concentration will thus cause toxic levels of carboxyhaemoglobin. After the carbon monoxide has selectively bound to haemoglobin the oxygen-haemoglobin dissociation curve of the remaining oxyhaemoglobin shifts to the left, reducing oxygen release (Figure 1). The affinity of carbon monoxide for myoglobin is even greater than for haemoglobin¹. Binding to cardiac myoglobin causes myocardial depression, hypotension and arrhythmias. Cardiac decompensation results in further tissue hypoxia and is ultimately the cause of death".     Tu simplify this last paragraph, basically Carbon monoxide, from the exhaust of your precious petrol car, binds to your very own haemoglobin molecules in your blood, these molecules are speciffically designed to transport oxygen to every cell in your body, however, inhaled carbon monoxide, which is colorless, odorless and fu%$ing toxic, takes the spot of the oxygen, and basically inhibits your blood from distributing oxygen through out your body.

This is not an argument of what what is cheaper or what is easier to make, its basically the health of everyone and our entire planet. Just remember, when you jump into your car, and fire up the engine, and you get that nostalgic scent of toxic fumes, maybe you have kids, friends and families......just remember, carbon monoxide is odorless, colorless and tasteless. and this chemical is penetrating deep into your tissues in excessive amounts, and interfering with healthy amounts of oxygen being transported to very important tissues of your body like you heart tissues or neurons. So just remmebr this, this is not a discussion of monetary costs........but natural and bio "logical"  ones.

I agree with Danial Gable.

Also, EVs are cool. There is a positive emotional factor connected to being an EV driver. Another factor in the cost equation is that the ever-increasing range of EVs creates deep discounts for the older, shorter range EVS.