Paris Is Burning Over Climate Change Taxes -- Is America Next?

[jaycee + 348]

7 hours ago, Illurion said:

I am not a fan of wikipedia.....

In the end,  it is all just opinion anyway.   But i believe that Tom is more accurate than whoever wrote what was in wikipedia.

As I said on another thread to you there is no free press everything is biased to a greater or lesser degree. Wikipedia is unique in that the editor can be you. Anyone can edit it so it tends to be less biased than other media.

7 hours ago, Illurion said:

The Nazis were far LEFT WING in that they wanted to totally change the status quo in Germany....   The Nazis were not Nationalists,  they were just ideologue thugs.  Pretty much like what ANTIFA is in the USA today.

All extremists, Left and Right, want to change the status quo the fact the Nazis wanted to do that does not make them Left wing.

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Try to align the tenets of the Nazi Party with Laissez-faire capitalism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

Why?

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htp

It has many right wing principles in there as well as left however considering where Germany was post WW1 if you wanted to raise support you will say anything to get backing what they evolved into was a right wing dictatorship. Perhaps they lied to get into power, radical thought I know.

 

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Democrats and the Klu Klux Klan https://newstalk1130.iheart.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/the-democratic-party-and-the-kkk-11769046/

The KKK wanted to bring back slavery this is not a left wing ideology. The fact they hated Republicans was because they were beaten by a Republican North and were still fighting against it, if the North had been Democratic would Nathan Forest have changed sides, don't think so.

The Scottish Nationalist Party were founded in 1934 and were right wing, though not extreme, they are now a very left wing party because that was how they have managed to gather votes. Parties are not defined by how they start or what they say its what they do that makes them what they are. In both cases the KKK and the Nazis act and acted as right wing extremists though you can point to some vaguely left wing roots..

Edited December 29, 2018 by jaycee
really bad typos

[Illurion + 894]

5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

What are you talking about? 

This is a checkable fact. Read "mein kampf". It is loaded with anti-communism and anti-semitism.  If you are serious about your claim then qoute Mein Kampf. I can to back my claim up. 

No thank you.

I am not interested in reading Hitler's my story book.

I have always felt that the true right wing in Germany at that time were the loyal German Nationalists in the military,  before it was all co-opted by the Nazi's.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

Man, this topic has really gone totally crazy.  Now it is castigation of Adolf Hitler and Maxine Waters, and the old Prussian professional military tossed in for good measure.  If that is not enough on your plate, have a helping of climate science, from both sides of the aisle.  Tom, this is all your fault!

I checked the leaderboard and am sitting up there at a tantalizing 1,998.  I think when it hits 2,000 I will call it a day and move over to being a Lurker; do my posting on Yahoo.com or maybe that Breitbart channel, or Der Spiegel, hey why not.  Move along, please, these are not the Drones you are looking for.  

[Illurion + 894]

8 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Well written commentary.  Fits in with the yellow jacket protestors getting fed up with the totalitatarian fake democracy of EU elites.  And why Brussels will ultimately ignore the complaints of disenfranchised French protestors and simply proceed with globalization of a Borg EU regardless of what EU ordinary people think.

The Mock Democracy

The citizens are disenfranchised and conditioned to be politically apathetic consumers. In recent decades, democracy has been replaced by the illusion of democracy. New forms of organization of power and psychological methods for manipulation of our consciousness protect the powerful against the risks of democratic empowerment and strengthen their position. ...

Your description of a "BORG EU" is so apt.

Lets hope that the coming revolutions in Europe will overthrow the BORG before the common people are "assimilated".

Did you read the many articles yesterday about the possibility of civil war in Sweden ?

Remember,  just a year ago the main stream media were howling at Trump for pointing out the very existence of no-go zones in Sweden.

The media claimed the zones did not exist,  and called Trump a liar.

Now,  it appears that the no go zones are so many,  and so large,  that even the media cannot ignore them.

 

I find it ironic that it is the former "eastern block" , former Soviet states from behind the iron curtain,   that are the only ones to stand up to the Elitist EU.

Those states have seen the face of tyranny,  and they recognize it when they see it,  and want no part of it.

The USA should really remove our bases from Germany,  and remove them to non-BORG places in what used to be Europe.

The way that Europe has evolved over the last 40 years i find disturbing,   and makes the need for NATO as it currently exists less and less necessary.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Illurion

[Illurion + 894]

14 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Man, this topic has really gone totally crazy.

 

I agree 100%.

A few pages ago i even said i don't know why this thread is still active as we covered all the real issues 5 or 10 pages ago.

I wish the moderators would just close it to new comments.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 12/27/2018 at 10:40 PM, Red said:

You provided nothing relevant on climate and here you just spout utter rubbish. Example: "Hitler was a socialist of the fascist type adding racism to his teachings."  I won't do what Jan does and write copiously, as history has written comprehensively on Hitler and his totalitarian regime.

Another example: "The far right are not racist by definition except by lying propagandists." A truly remarkable claim which relies on the word salad of "what is a definition".  However, far right embraces the concept of one group being naturally better than another, which reasonably extends to include racism as an element.

 

I would go with the line that Nazi style fascism is a left wing ideology in most aspects that its core policies are centralised authoritarian state control. Its main variation from communism is that corporate patronage (sometimes described as corporate socialism)  replaces state nationalism and  racism  and discrimination has a major part to play. Of course there are plenty of examples of communist discrimination against Jews (USSR), gays (Cuba, many African Communist states) etc. 

Far right in my view is represented by the libertarian model - minimal state control, taxation, public sector intervention. Perhaps a system where Government basically provide armed forces and courts. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

27 minutes ago, NickW said:

 

Far right in my view is represented by the libertarian model - minimal state control, taxation, public sector intervention. Perhaps a system where Government basically provide armed forces and courts. 

Nick, I would venture to say that the "far right" model is actually maximum State control.  It becomes a question of "what" the State ends up controlling.  In the Far Right model, the State will control all political thought and brook no deviation, just as the Communist system brooks no dissension.  Both models will back that up with internment camps of various degrees, either Gulags in the Communist system, or Marion Penitentiary and Guantanamo prisons in the Rightist system.  Overarching in all such systems is the concept of "total compliance."

It is that "compliance" aspect that those who love Liberty find so offending.  On a parochial level, I offer you the example of the State of Connecticut.  After the horrendous murders at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the (Democrat-controlled, compliance-model) State Legislature passed gun laws basically outlawing the Colt AR-15 type of rifle  (for non Americans, that is a civilian version of the M-16 Vietnam-era combat rifle, albeit with different barrel rifling and so forth).  Gun magazines were outlawed above a certain size, and if you already owned an AR-15, you had to go to the State Police Headquarters and "register" the gun.  

The argument by gun owners is that the AR-15 is nothing more than a 22-caliber plinking rifle, of the type previously sold to parents of young boys who would go out and shoot at tin cans or squirrels with it.  That is partially true; what sets the AR-15 apart is that the ammunition is identical to the military version and is designed to produce gaping wounds, that are typically fatal. Although the same approximate calibre,0.22 vs. 0.223,  it is not quite a plinking gun.  Basically, get hit with one round and you are dead. 

The Colt rifles were all manufactured in the Colt factory in Hartford, Connecticut, which armory has been around since the beginning of time.  To no surprise, there are hundreds of thousands of AR-15s in Connecticut.  The Legislature decreed that anyone in possession of such rifle after the deadline date without having registered would be guilty of a felony crime.  On the last day, the State was treated to the spectacle of thousands of men lined up at the State Police Headquarters in huge lines to go register their guns.  

When the dust settled, a back-of-the-envelope calculation was made as to the number of un-registered weapons presumed still in the State.  They came up with 200,000.  Assuming two guns for each owner, that implies that at least 100,000 men chose to be felons rather than register their rifles.  That is a lot of resistance to the Compliance Model of government. 

Since that, the Legislature has directed the State Police to go raid the houses of the non-compliant gun owners and confiscate the weapons and arrest the Refusniks as felons, to be brought before the Court in handcuffs and to be disposed of.  To no surprise, no policeman has much of an appetite to go out to start up a confrontation with a heavily-armed gun owner who is challenging the State.  The total number of such raids attempted to date is precisely zero.  The union made it clear to Management that any attempt to muster a squad to go do that would be met by sick calls.  Nobody would show up.  Police management was wise enough to forget those ideas.  The Legislature is outraged, but then again, that is composed of various levels of communists, albeit not with actual Party membership.  And so goes the world in the United States of America.  Compliance is only possible when the State first disarms the public. And you can forget the idea that the public is going to be disarmed.  Ain't gonna happen. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Man, this topic has really gone totally crazy.  Now it is castigation of Adolf Hitler and Maxine Waters, and the old Prussian professional military tossed in for good measure.  If that is not enough on your plate, have a helping of climate science, from both sides of the aisle.  Tom, this is all your fault!

I checked the leaderboard and am sitting up there at a tantalizing 1,998.  I think when it hits 2,000 I will call it a day and move over to being a Lurker; do my posting on Yahoo.com or maybe that Breitbart channel, or Der Spiegel, hey why not.  Move along, please, these are not the Drones you are looking for.  

Actually this makes me think of the original topic even more:  The fractures in the EU have become even more apparent during this discussion, not less.  I.e. the differences in perception of cause and effect are vastly different among people: depending on their location, their knowledge of "history" (in quotes because "history" is written by people, and those people also have/had their own take on what went down and when), their knowledge of current local complaints or alleged grievances, and what has been or is written in the various media outlets (and indeed where the media accounts are written from and by which "side" of the argument each media outlet represents).  This all leads me to believe the problems the EU faces are looking more and more difficult, if not unsolvable, without some escalation of protests and/or even violence or révolution.

[Illurion + 894]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

I would go with the line that Nazi style fascism is a left wing ideology in most aspects that its core policies are centralised authoritarian state control. Its main variation from communism is that corporate patronage (sometimes described as corporate socialism)  replaces state nationalism and  racism  and discrimination has a major part to play. Of course there are plenty of examples of communist discrimination against Jews (USSR), gays (Cuba, many African Communist states) etc. 

Far right in my view is represented by the libertarian model - minimal state control, taxation, public sector intervention. Perhaps a system where Government basically provide armed forces and courts. 

Thank you.

Well put.

[Illurion + 894]

54 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nick, I would venture to say that the "far right" model is actually maximum State control.  It becomes a question of "what" the State ends up controlling.  In the Far Right model, the State will control all political thought and brook no deviation, just as the Communist system brooks no dissension.  Both models will back that up with internment camps of various degrees, either Gulags in the Communist system, or Marion Penitentiary and Guantanamo prisons in the Rightist system.  Overarching in all such systems is the concept of "total compliance."

Your explanation flies in the face of what we see every day.

 

In the EU,  it is the EU Government,  which is LEFT,  that is mandating thought control,  systematically taking away rights, etc.

In the USA,  it is the Democrats,  which are LEFT,  that are doing everything they can to control thoughts and opinions.

 

No where in the FREE world do i see any government that is RIGHT trying to exert "maximum state control."

The emphasis here is on FREE...   In a FREE culture,  RIGHT is for "less state control" and "more freedom".

 

Countries with totalitarian regimes can never be deemed to be RIGHT,  as they exert full control,  therefore,  by definition,  they are LEFT.

By your definition,  Cuba would be a "RIGHT-WING" country.    I do not see it that way.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Illurion

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 minute ago, Illurion said:

54 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nick, I would venture to say that the "far right" model is actually maximum State control.  It becomes a question of "what" the State ends up controlling.  In the Far Right model, the State will control all political thought and brook no deviation, just as the Communist system brooks no dissension.  Both models will back that up with internment camps of various degrees, either Gulags in the Communist system, or Marion Penitentiary and Guantanamo prisons in the Rightist system.  Overarching in all such systems is the concept of "total compliance."

Your explanation flies in the face of what we see every day.

 

In the EU,  it is the EU Government,  which is LEFT,  that is mandating thought control,  systematically taking away rights, etc.

In the USA,  it is the Democrats,  which are LEFT,  that are doing everything they can to control thoughts and opinions.

 

No where in the FREE world do i see any government that is RIGHT trying to exert "maximum state control."

The emphasis here is on FREE...   In a FREE culture,  RIGHT is for "less state control" and "more freedom".

 

Countries with totalitarian regimes can never be deemed to be RIGHT,  as they exert full control,  therefore,  by definition,  they are LEFT.

I have to admit I had problems with that paragraph as well.  @Jan van Eck can you maybe expound upon your meaning?

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nick, I would venture to say that the "far right" model is actually maximum State control.  It becomes a question of "what" the State ends up controlling.  In the Far Right model, the State will control all political thought and brook no deviation, just as the Communist system brooks no dissension.  Both models will back that up with internment camps of various degrees, either Gulags in the Communist system, or Marion Penitentiary and Guantanamo prisons in the Rightist system.  Overarching in all such systems is the concept of "total compliance."

It is that "compliance" aspect that those who love Liberty find so offending.  On a parochial level, I offer you the example of the State of Connecticut.  After the horrendous murders at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the (Democrat-controlled, compliance-model) State Legislature passed gun laws basically outlawing the Colt AR-15 type of rifle  (for non Americans, that is a civilian version of the M-16 Vietnam-era combat rifle, albeit with different barrel rifling and so forth).  Gun magazines were outlawed above a certain size, and if you already owned an AR-15, you had to go to the State Police Headquarters and "register" the gun.  

The argument by gun owners is that the AR-15 is nothing more than a 22-caliber plinking rifle, of the type previously sold to parents of young boys who would go out and shoot at tin cans or squirrels with it.  That is partially true; what sets the AR-15 apart is that the ammunition is identical to the military version and is designed to produce gaping wounds, that are typically fatal. Although the same approximate calibre,0.22 vs. 0.223,  it is not quite a plinking gun.  Basically, get hit with one round and you are dead. 

The Colt rifles were all manufactured in the Colt factory in Hartford, Connecticut, which armory has been around since the beginning of time.  To no surprise, there are hundreds of thousands of AR-15s in Connecticut.  The Legislature decreed that anyone in possession of such rifle after the deadline date without having registered would be guilty of a felony crime.  On the last day, the State was treated to the spectacle of thousands of men lined up at the State Police Headquarters in huge lines to go register their guns.  

When the dust settled, a back-of-the-envelope calculation was made as to the number of un-registered weapons presumed still in the State.  They came up with 200,000.  Assuming two guns for each owner, that implies that at least 100,000 men chose to be felons rather than register their rifles.  That is a lot of resistance to the Compliance Model of government. 

Since that, the Legislature has directed the State Police to go raid the houses of the non-compliant gun owners and confiscate the weapons and arrest the Refusniks as felons, to be brought before the Court in handcuffs and to be disposed of.  To no surprise, no policeman has much of an appetite to go out to start up a confrontation with a heavily-armed gun owner who is challenging the State.  The total number of such raids attempted to date is precisely zero.  The union made it clear to Management that any attempt to muster a squad to go do that would be met by sick calls.  Nobody would show up.  Police management was wise enough to forget those ideas.  The Legislature is outraged, but then again, that is composed of various levels of communists, albeit not with actual Party membership.  And so goes the world in the United States of America.  Compliance is only possible when the State first disarms the public. And you can forget the idea that the public is going to be disarmed.  Ain't gonna happen. 

Quite - you can use 0.223 in a 5.56mm Nato rifle. How anyone can equate a 5.56mm centrefire cartridge with a rim fire 0.22 is beyond me. The ft.lbf  for a 5.56mm is about 7 x than of a 0.22

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

5 hours ago, Illurion said:

I wish the moderators would just close it to new comments.

If it gets to this point of batsh*t crazy tantrums, I'll freeze it.  Saw this yesterday and LMAO at the foaming at the mouth rabid intolerance.  NPC screeching.  Video went viral yesterday.

Watch Epic Meltdown By Vape Shop Employee Triggered By Trump-Supporting Customer

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Man, triggered is right.  That boy needs to look what he's putting in his vape AND his mind.  I don't know how I could have worked and lived inside a communist country if I had been so obsessed with what the people around me had in their thoughts.  And, oh my goodness, many of them had on "Mao suits" and flag pins on their lapels!  The horror!  How could they possibly think I might do business with them?  Is there such a thing as race-ophobic?  This is what's happening to our young people, people.  Pay attention to what's being taught to your children, and back away slowly, very slowly, and don't make any sudden moves.  

[Red + 252]

2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Actually this makes me think of the original topic even more:  The fractures in the EU have become even more apparent during this discussion, not less.  I.e. the differences in perception of cause and effect are vastly different among people: depending on their location, their knowledge of "history" (in quotes because "history" is written by people, and those people also have/had their own take on what went down and when), their knowledge of current local complaints or alleged grievances, and what has been or is written in the various media outlets (and indeed where the media accounts are written from and by which "side" of the argument each media outlet represents).  This all leads me to believe the problems the EU faces are looking more and more difficult, if not unsolvable, without some escalation of protests and/or even violence or révolution.

So much depends on what you "believe" or understand the far left/right to be.  Here's an example that attempts balance, but misses on many levels.: NOT objective explanation of right/left divide. 

Here's an example that at least provides a reasoned perspective: Balance.

Unless we are using the same senses of what the terms define, it's not possible to reasonably discuss, let alone debate, the topic.

When I entered the thread it was more to propose that the headline was disingenuous.  The recent French budget made many changes to how it would tax in order to govern, consistent with how it was elected.  A very small element affected fuel taxes.  Conflating that to a climate change tax was a bit much, and suggesting America could be next was, when I venture an opinion, a joke - most Americans don't believe climate change will affect them true!.

Aside from that, there are simply many comments in the thread which are nonsensical, eg the UE is not a government so basing comments around that idea is irrational.

The respective nations of the EU have parliaments, and elections, and varying electoral systems - some enabling small parties to achieve representation and thereby leading to coalition governments (eg Italy), and others favouring a small number of parties where single party dominance is often read as a "mandate" to implement every policy on their platform (despite the fact that individual policies were not put to the vote).  Most of the issues confounding EU members will be due to their unique local circumstances, and within their control (or ability to control).  They all know that they need to live within the single market and its standardised system of laws that they signed into.

It's possible more will come out of the yellow vest protests, but the prospects of their actions gaining widespread political traction are not likely to be realised unless they develop a strong leadership structure.  That is the lesson of history.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Red, a humanist can be far left or far right, it has nothing to do with politics. 

[TXPower + 643]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

Quite - you can use 0.223 in a 5.56mm Nato rifle. How anyone can equate a 5.56mm centrefire cartridge with a rim fire 0.22 is beyond me. The ft.lbf  for a 5.56mm is about 7 x than of a 0.22

Indeed.  Slightly heavier bullet, WAY more powder=large wound cavity.  But let’s be realistic, .22, the choice of assasins, is equally deadly.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

I have posted the original confrontation and the solution already. Here are the videos 

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/vape-shop-employee-goes-into-full-meltdown-over-trump-shirt-nsfw/

https://twitter.com/Phressssh/status/1079069411359756288

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Red said:

So much depends on what you "believe" or understand the far left/right to be.  Here's an example that attempts balance, but misses on many levels.: NOT objective explanation of right/left divide. 

Here's an example that at least provides a reasoned perspective: Balance.

Unless we are using the same senses of what the terms define, it's not possible to reasonably discuss, let alone debate, the topic.

When I entered the thread it was more to propose that the headline was disingenuous.  The recent French budget made many changes to how it would tax in order to govern, consistent with how it was elected.  A very small element affected fuel taxes.  Conflating that to a climate change tax was a bit much, and suggesting America could be next was, when I venture an opinion, a joke - most Americans don't believe climate change will affect them true!.

Aside from that, there are simply many comments in the thread which are nonsensical, eg the UE is not a government so basing comments around that idea is irrational.

The respective nations of the EU have parliaments, and elections, and varying electoral systems - some enabling small parties to achieve representation and thereby leading to coalition governments (eg Italy), and others favouring a small number of parties where single party dominance is often read as a "mandate" to implement every policy on their platform (despite the fact that individual policies were not put to the vote).  Most of the issues confounding EU members will be due to their unique local circumstances, and within their control (or ability to control).  They all know that they need to live within the single market and its standardised system of laws that they signed into.

It's possible more will come out of the yellow vest protests, but the prospects of their actions gaining widespread political traction are not likely to be realised unless they develop a strong leadership structure.  That is the lesson of history.

A more rational way to look at the old left versus right paradigm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism

This might avoid some emotionalism.

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by ronwagn

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

21 minutes ago, TXPower said:

Indeed.  Slightly heavier bullet, WAY more powder=large wound cavity.  But let’s be realistic, .22, the choice of assasins, is equally deadly.

You gotta love it!  In case anyone just doesn't give a shxt what anyone here says, here's your ammunition!  LOL!  Thanks, OilPrice.  I love this forum!  

Edited December 29, 2018 by Dan Warnick

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

32 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I have posted the original confrontation and the solution already. Here are the videos 

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/vape-shop-employee-goes-into-full-meltdown-over-trump-shirt-nsfw/

https://twitter.com/Phressssh/status/1079069411359756288

^ The Twitter video is absolutely wonderful.  Really.

[Illurion + 894]

2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

If it gets to this point of batsh*t crazy tantrums, I'll freeze it.  Saw this yesterday and LMAO at the foaming at the mouth rabid intolerance.  NPC screeching.  Video went viral yesterday.

Watch Epic Meltdown By Vape Shop Employee Triggered By Trump-Supporting Customer

 

I saw the video on Breitbart.   

Funny as hell.

The idiot was screaming like a little girl.

And all because a customer came in wearing a Trump T-Shirt.

It was just announced that his employer fired him immediately.

You can bet that he was living in his Momma's basement anyway.

Loser.

Who would EVER hire this guy after what he has shown the whole world ?

He has a bad case of Trump Derangement Syndrome...

No one has ever treated me like that.

I am jealous.

I wear a Trump t-shirt every once in a while,  all i ever get are compliments,  or people asking where they can BUY one.

I miss out on all the fun.

[Red + 252]

47 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Red, a humanist can be far left or far right, it has nothing to do with politics. 

You are welcome to think that Ron, but it would require a brand new definition of traditional humanism.  I debate philosophers on substance rather than labels, for that very reason.  

That's why I prefer to work from what actually happened and give that meaning.  I could write copiously on the use of "elites" in this thread but my commentary would be wasted.  The mindsets of too many are deeply ingrained to beliefs which any level of evidence would not sway.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

This should be the purr-fect time to share a video that touches on far right/left, plus a few other deep thoughts:

Left, Right & more

It's only for us lower intellects, Red.  You needn't waste your time.

[Illurion + 894]

1 hour ago, TXPower said:

Indeed.  Slightly heavier bullet, WAY more powder=large wound cavity.  But let’s be realistic, .22, the choice of assasins, is equally deadly.

All of mine are 22's.

One of these days i'll get an AR.

But frankly,  i would rather have a shotgun. 

Better in close quarters.

The shotgun i have now is over 100 years old,  and no longer fires.