Chinese FDI in U.S. Drops 90%: America's Clueless Tech Entrepreneurs

(edited)

Will Musk (Tesla China), Gates (Templeton Dragon Fund), Buffet (BYD) and other western billionaires reset their priorities toward the Free World?

 https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/chinese-foreign-direct-investment-to-the-us-falls-in-2018-data.html

2016-2018, FDI dropped 90%.

In 2015, Microsoft surrendered its OS to Chinese piracy, opting instead to sell the system to the IPR law-abiding states who unwittingly subsidize China and Asia's IP theft. Microsoft certainly has business models that assist in generating revenue from the plan, but the excuses do not make sense. If pirates can steal an OS, they can steal other peripherals as well. 

I'm tired of subsidizing corporate America's attempt to break into the Chinese market, which, in the long-term, is a losing venture for any foreign firm. 

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-gives-up-on-charging-for-windows-in-china/

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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To quote you “Seignorage is amazing! It costs America $0.165 to create a $100 note... More than 60 % of America 's paper currency is traded outside of America. Yet, technology and QE has enabled the Fed spending than actual currency."

Our money needs to go on circulating. The moment we stop spending this money, other nations will stop accepting it, and then it becomes worthless.  What is not noticed in our trade fight with China is that American companies sell 600 billion dollars worth of goods and services within China. It doesn't create employment in America, but it does bring profits to American companies and more importantly keeps our dollar in circulation. That is why American companies need to invest in growth markets. 

Edited by Hotone
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The Balance of Payments argument is a good one, but also one that falls flat over the long-term. Without IPR and other legal protections, there is nothing to stop China from stealing the assets of the firm, just as they do with the lives of their people. Recently, there are many international attempts through counties and organizations (e.g. WTO, UN, U.S. DoS) to halt IP theft. China, like many nations, sends their delegation to stand proudly in support of IPR. They want to learn every aspect of the RULES around the game. They even pass an enormous number of new laws to demonstrate their commitment to IPR. 

However, ENFORCEMENT is the keyword and ultimately the most powerful part of IPR. 

What can you possibly do to people living in poverty in rural China, if you catch them pirating? Are you going to make them live in poverty in rural China as their punishment? There is no downside. (sure I'm exaggerating to  make a point!).

As for "Circulating" fiat money created for the purpose of enriching America at the world's expense, that also is a dead-end. In 1965 French President Charles de Galle predicted the dollar decoupling from the Gold Standard and sent the French Navy to exchange for gold. SEE THIS LINK EXORBITANT PRIVILEGE The term was coined in the 1960s by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, then the French Minister of Finance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgnGAr3-kM

What you are seeing in the world today is the final gasp of a monetary system with no real base. When one country can continue to print without regard, it is a form of socialism. 

When the dollar collapsed in 1971, America persuaded the Suadi's to create the Petrodollar, in exchange for military protection. But, sanctions and rewards caused discontent and unrest in the Arab world. We had Osama bin Laden initiate the end of the Petrodollar in 2001. Months after 9/11, in Dec. 2001, America allowed China to join the WTO. China created cheap products in exchange for USD; thereby, ushering in deflation. By 2007-2008, America and the world dollar system collapsed again. Rather than throwing the globe into depression and war, the international committee agreed to QE and running the dollar printing press non-stop. Obama doubled the national debt, once again leaving the dollar overleveraged and without a sufficient base. Trump was elected to rein in America's fantastically wild addiction to cheap foreign products acquired by the intrinsically worthless USD. 

If someone came to you with a piece of paper worth $0.16 and demanded $100 worth of products or services, would you agree? If it is current USD, maybe you would. But, as the Liberals and Progressives in America overspend, the prospect of USD world dominance diminishes exponentially. 

The world must be EXTREMELY concerned about the death of the U.S. Dollar. It is real and happening as we speak! OR, write, blog, chat? 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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26 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

The Balance of Payments argument is a good one, but also one that falls flat over the long-term. Without IPR and other legal protections, there is nothing to stop China from stealing the assets of the firm, just as they do with the lives of their people. Recently, there are many international attempts through counties and organizations (e.g. WTO, UN, U.S. DoS) to halt IP theft. China, like many nations, sends their delegation to stand proudly in support of IPR. They want to learn every aspect of the RULES around the game. They even pass an enormous number of new laws to demonstrate their commitment to IPR. 

However, ENFORCEMENT is the keyword and ultimately the most powerful part of IPR. 

What can you possibly do to people living in poverty in rural China, if you catch them pirating? Are you going to make them live in poverty in rural China as their punishment? There is no downside. (sure I'm exaggerating to  make a point!).

As for "Circulating" fiat money created for the purpose of enriching America at the world's expense, that also is a dead-end. 

In 1965 French President Charles de Galle predicted the dollar decoupling from the Gold Standard and sent the French Navy to exchange for gold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgnGAr3-kM

What you are seeing in the world today is the final gasp of a monetary system with no real base. When one country can continue to print without regard, it is a form of socialism. 

When the dollar collapsed in 1971, America persuaded the Suadi's to create the Petrodollar, in exchange for military protection. But, sanctions and rewards caused discontent and unrest in the Arab world. We had Osama bin Laden initiate the end of the Petrodollar in 2001. Months after 9/11, in Dec. 2001, America allowed China to join the WTO. China created cheap products in exchange for USD; thereby, ushering in deflation. By 2008-2009, America and the world dollar system collapsed again. Rather than throwing the globe into depression and war, the international committee agreed to QE and running the dollar printing press non-stop. Obama doubled the national debt, once again leaving the dollar overleveraged and without a sufficient base. Trump was elected to rein in America's fantastically wild addiction to cheap foreign products acquired by the intrinsically worthless USD. 

If someone came to you with a piece of paper worth $0.16 and demanded $100 worth of products or services, would you agree? If it is current USD, maybe you would. But, as the Liberals and Progressives in America overspend, the prospect of USD world dominance diminishes exponentially. 

The world must be EXTREMELY concerned about the death of the U.S. Dollar. It is real and happening as we speak! OR, write, blog, chat? 

^This.

Add to the mix the fact that Russia and China have been acquiring and stockpiling gold for several years now, you do the math.........

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On 1/15/2019 at 10:56 AM, Microbio-glutonist said:

The Balance of Payments argument is a good one, but also one that falls flat over the long-term. Without IPR and other legal protections, there is nothing to stop China from stealing the assets of the firm, just as they do with the lives of their people. Recently, there are many international attempts through counties and organizations (e.g. WTO, UN, U.S. DoS) to halt IP theft. China, like many nations, sends their delegation to stand proudly in support of IPR. They want to learn every aspect of the RULES around the game. They even pass an enormous number of new laws to demonstrate their commitment to IPR. 

However, ENFORCEMENT is the keyword and ultimately the most powerful part of IPR. 

What can you possibly do to people living in poverty in rural China, if you catch them pirating? Are you going to make them live in poverty in rural China as their punishment? There is no downside. (sure I'm exaggerating to  make a point!).

 As for "Circulating" fiat money created for the purpose of enriching America at the world's expense, that also is a dead-end. In 1965 French President Charles de Galle predicted the dollar decoupling from the Gold Standard and sent the French Navy to exchange for gold. SEE THIS LINK EXORBITANT PRIVILEGE The term was coined in the 1960s by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, then the French Minister of Finance. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgnGAr3-kM

What you are seeing in the world today is the final gasp of a monetary system with no real base. When one country can continue to print without regard, it is a form of socialism. 

When the dollar collapsed in 1971, America persuaded the Suadi's to create the Petrodollar, in exchange for military protection. But, sanctions and rewards caused discontent and unrest in the Arab world. We had Osama bin Laden initiate the end of the Petrodollar in 2001. Months after 9/11, in Dec. 2001, America allowed China to join the WTO. China created cheap products in exchange for USD; thereby, ushering in deflation. By 2007-2008, America and the world dollar system collapsed again. Rather than throwing the globe into depression and war, the international committee agreed to QE and running the dollar printing press non-stop. Obama doubled the national debt, once again leaving the dollar overleveraged and without a sufficient base. Trump was elected to rein in America's fantastically wild addiction to cheap foreign products acquired by the intrinsically worthless USD. 

If someone came to you with a piece of paper worth $0.16 and demanded $100 worth of products or services, would you agree? If it is current USD, maybe you would. But, as the Liberals and Progressives in America overspend, the prospect of USD world dominance diminishes exponentially. 

The world must be EXTREMELY concerned about the death of the U.S. Dollar. It is real and happening as we speak! OR, write, blog, chat? 

IIRC, there was significant inflation around the time of the Vietnam war.  It was rough, but manageable.  Nothing like the Weimar Republic's hyperinflation.  Any chance the end of the dollar happens gracefully with inflation <10%/year until things return to normal? 

E.g. if we manage to grow our economy at a reasonable rate - which is possible, with all the natural resources, manufacturing, and new technology we can bring online should we so choose - it would take a huge dent out of that impending inflation.  Meanwhile, a growing economy would mean growing wages for the private sector.  This would reduce the pain average workers would feel. 

Pensioners, retirees, and government employees would be screwed, of course - but that's their fault for tying their fate to Big Government. 

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26 minutes ago, mthebold said:

IIRC, there was significant inflation around the time of the Vietnam war.  It was rough, but manageable.  Nothing like the Weimar Republic's hyperinflation.  Any chance the end of the dollar happens gracefully with inflation <10%/year until things return to normal? 

E.g. if we manage to grow our economy at a reasonable rate - which is possible, with all the natural resources, manufacturing, and new technology we can bring online should we so choose - it would take a huge dent out of that impending inflation.  Meanwhile, a growing economy would mean growing wages for the private sector.  This would reduce the pain average workers would feel. 

Pensioners, retirees, and government employees would be screwed, of course - but that's their fault for tying their fate to Big Government. 

1

I would agree with you, except, we live in a dynamic political environment, where voters choose to spend rather than save.

The problem is that any progress toward your plan would be met with excessive spending on the part of the Democrats. In previous periods, e.g. Reagan, the liberals spend all savings, plus a factor above that amount toward building additional entitlements. They re-termed the events as "investments," thereby, encouraging the public to vote for further tax increases and spending.  

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1 hour ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

I would agree with you, except, we live in a dynamic political environment, where voters choose to spend rather than save.

The problem is that any progress toward your plan would be met with excessive spending on the part of the Democrats. In previous periods, e.g. Reagan, the liberals spend all savings, plus a factor above that amount toward building additional entitlements. They re-termed the events as "investments," thereby, encouraging the public to vote for further tax increases and spending.  

That's true - and I assume it's why Republicans drove the debt higher this time: if the Democrats touch any part of the economy, the debt bomb explodes, taking us all with it.  There's zero safety margin; we're all in this together now. 

That said, I think the next question is, "Who wins under this scenario?" 
Not foreign holders of US dollars, who will watch their wealth decline. 
Not foreign manufacturers and domestic importers, who will struggle under a weaker dollar. 
Not liberal city dwellers, who will pay more for the same goods and services. 
Not government employees, pensioners, retirees, and welfare recipients, whose incomes are pegged to a woefully understated official inflation rate. 

There's one group who will benefit from this: the people who produce real things.  Their income is pegged to the value of their production, and that rises in lock-step with inflation.  They'll also enjoy a boon as the weaker dollar keeps out foreign imports - and may even allow them to export.  Engineers, tradesmen, laborers, landowners, and the people who employ them will see their income rise, slowly bringing it in line with the city dwellers dwellers who've squeezed them for so long.  I wonder if Trump is banking on this.  His constituents are the producers, and he knows they can survive inflation, whereas the Democrats' constituents are the consumers who will suffer - and if Democrats set off the debt bomb, their constituents will suffer the most. 

I don't think Trump is a madman, but I do think he plays the part well - not because he enjoys it, but because he needs everyone to believe he'd pull the trigger. He would, of course, but that's not madness.  His constituents were backed into a corner and in need of a leader who would cross any line and use any weapon; he volunteered for the job.  They elected him to put his finger on that trigger and hold it there, daring anyone to oppose him as he slowly grinds leftist plans into the dirt.  I do believe this is a war, and Trump is fighting it with extreme prejudice.

It's about f***ing time. 

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4 minutes ago, mthebold said:

That's true - and I assume it's why Republicans drove the debt higher this time: if the Democrats touch any part of the economy, the debt bomb explodes, taking us all with it.  There's zero safety margin; we're all in this together now. 

That said, I think the next question is, "Who wins under this scenario?" 
Not foreign holders of US dollars, who will watch their wealth decline. 
Not foreign manufacturers and domestic importers, who will struggle under a weaker dollar. 
Not liberal city dwellers, who will pay more for the same goods and services. 
Not government employees, pensioners, retirees, and welfare recipients, whose incomes are pegged to a woefully understated official inflation rate. 

There's one group who will benefit from this: the people who produce real things.  Their income is pegged to the value of their production, and that rises in lock-step with inflation.  They'll also enjoy a boon as the weaker dollar keeps out foreign imports - and may even allow them to export.  Engineers, tradesmen, laborers, landowners, and the people who employ them will see their income rise, slowly bringing it in line with the city dwellers dwellers who've squeezed them for so long.  I wonder if Trump is banking on this.  His constituents are the producers, and he knows they can survive inflation, whereas the Democrats' constituents are the consumers who will suffer - and if Democrats set off the debt bomb, their constituents will suffer the most. 

I don't think Trump is a madman, but I do think he plays the part well - not because he enjoys it, but because he needs everyone to believe he'd pull the trigger. He would, of course, but that's not madness.  His constituents were backed into a corner and in need of a leader who would cross any line and use any weapon; he volunteered for the job.  They elected him to put his finger on that trigger and hold it there, daring anyone to oppose him as he slowly grinds leftist plans into the dirt.  I do believe this is a war, and Trump is fighting it with extreme prejudice.

It's about f***ing time. 

I mostly agree with your analysis! 

Unfortunately, I predicted years ago that the only way to seal the border is through the use of an emergency declaration, among other predictions that are really not predictions but are rather common sense.  

The Republicans could have done as Trump is today many years ago, except for the voting public, who would have thrown them out of office. As witnessed in European nations forced to deal with austerity measures, the pitchfork carrying crowds amass and thwart redemption. 

In the declining stage of a society, there is the propensity for people to jump on a runaway train, rather than off. People tend to want to get their part of the pie before it is all gone. So, I'm afraid that any whiff of decay will only incite the masses to further gluttony and greed. I'm hoping I'm wrong, although I doubt that I am. All societies are born, mature, decline and die. America is no different. 

The Founding Fathers original intent is so distorted that it is difficult to recognize. 

In America's case, the U.S. Dollar experiment proved too great an invention of humanity to overcome with rugged individualism. 

The excesses of the people, pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth go far beyond any default in financial accounting. The nation is bankrupt. All that is being decided now is if it will be chapter 7 or 11. 

One certain way out of debt is through the forceful acquisition of assets, meaning war. 

As other nations experience declining economic activity due to trade wars, high-interest rates, recession, and the reverse QE of $50 billion per month, the potential of war increases. Internal and external conflict will cause many nations to take up arms. That is the real threat to America and humanity.  

All we can do now is hope for a miracle, one in which the masses come to their senses, but that is far fetched. 

Most likely, voters will pursue ever greater handouts, and the politicians they elect will promise them. I really see no way out that will result in peace. I hope I'm wrong. 

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So if every Republican that had an illegal worker was put in jail for only week there would be little need for wall. The magnet of jobs would be gone

Mommy don't like daddy in jail. The church don't like daddy in jail. Shareholders don't like daddy in jail. Lock-em-up. PS. Would work for dems also. 

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If you like to read charts like I do you should look up Federal debt by president. You might be surprised. Also consider the first couple years of what an incoming president walked into. 

Remember when Bush Sr lost to Clinton by being worried about the esculating debt and decided to raise taxes? This was after promising no new taxes.

What was the result? Now Republicans cut taxes and balloon spending. Check those pesky numbers. The Dept of Treasury keeps a tally of the end result.

Once again the Dems are no better at debt stewardship. The parties just like to overspend on different things.

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1 hour ago, Boat said:

So if every Republican that had an illegal worker was put in jail for only week there would be little need for wall. The magnet of jobs would be gone

Mommy don't like daddy in jail. The church don't like daddy in jail. Shareholders don't like daddy in jail. Lock-em-up. PS. Would work for dems also. 

4

Thank you for the input Boat. 

You are correct that both the Dems and Repubs are a fault for not going far enough soon enough. When Reagan was in office, the same things happened then; taxes were reduced and the Dems spent far more than could be saved and created. This is a repeat of the Reagan years, with additional venom on both sides. 

As for employers hiring illegals, it is challenging to determine who is legal and who is not. The sanctuary cities, counties, and states try to thwart Federal law making identifying and pursuing illegals difficult. 

My suggestion is to pursue and prosecute employers. Let them know up front to give them a chance. Then, for the first offense of getting caught employing illegals, fine them $10,000 per employee. The next offense fine them $100,000 each employee. And, finally, on the third strike, they are out. Take away their citizenship and ship them out into exile. 

What this would do is send a very strong signal to anyone considering employing illegals. No sane person would employ an illegal; therefore, no work would exist for someone entering the country illegally. Additionally, anyone in the U.S. illegally would be forced to go back to their home country, they would have no work. 

Is that strong enough for you?

Green Cards for LEGAL work permits would also be a part of this system, so employers would have as many LEGAL workers as is needed, and those people needing asylum would have it when qualified. BUT, they would be in America legally! 

America wants to continue its history of welcoming foreigners to its shores. Diversity is part of our history, but unity is our strength! Once here, LEGALLY, Americans MUST share a common culture, language, and ideology. The problems today stem from the concept that ALL cultures are equal, they are not. For example, female genital mutilation, child brides, execution of minorities, and other egregious crimes against humanity are not acceptable cultural norms.

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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4 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

My suggestion is to pursue and prosecute employers. Let them know up front to give them a chance. Then, for the first offense of getting caught employing illegals, fine them $10,000 per employee. The next offense fine them $100,000 each employee. And, finally, on the third strike, they are out. Take away their citizenship and ship them out into exile. 

What this would do is send a very strong signal to anyone considering employing illegals. No sane person would employ an illegal; therefore, no work would exist for someone entering the country illegally. Additionally, anyone in the U.S. illegally would be forced to go back to their home country, they would have no work.

Out of curiosity who would do the low paid work these illegals do? Not Americans that's for sure they are the same as the UK 'workers' and will not work for that low a wage so the job does not get done as nobody can afford the wages that a native will work for. If a factory was forced to hire US citizens to do the work at a rate they would work for the factory would close as their products would not be able to compete on price. This then off course leads to the stop imports rhetoric which leads to goods being made in the US as the US wont accept foreign goods however foreigners will then not accept US goods so the cost of living in the US goes up, ie inflation,  due to having to buy expensive US made goods and then the medicine is higher interest rates. The $ also circulates less in the world which makes US debt pile unsustainable and bang the US is in deeper crap than they are now.
The solution is not get rid of illegal workers that is a symptom the solution is something else entirely and that is lowering wages and living standards across the board and make Western economies competitive again, illegals will stop coming as the incentives and jobs will dry up for them, but instead of doing that in the past voters have voted to borrow more and keep our comforts export jobs to cheaper countries so that we get cheaper goods, we are nearing the end of our credit line and a lowering of our living standard will happen regardless, if we start now the drop will be less precipitous. Politicians need to tell the truth on how screwed our economies are so real discussions can take place on fixing them not promote short term policies like stopping migration as the magic pill to solve the economy's problems, but sadly voters will not vote in anyone who tells the truth so we are all partying as the world falls apart.
Not a pleasant message I am afraid but that is how I see this playing out.

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8 hours ago, Boat said:

So if every Republican that had an illegal worker was put in jail for only week there would be little need for wall. The magnet of jobs would be gone

Mommy don't like daddy in jail. The church don't like daddy in jail. Shareholders don't like daddy in jail. Lock-em-up. PS. Would work for dems also. 

And it would cost a lot less than a wall... 

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2 hours ago, jaycee said:

Out of curiosity who would do the low paid work these illegals do? Not Americans that's for sure they are the same as the UK 'workers' and will not work for that low a wage so the job does not get done as nobody can afford the wages that a native will work for. If a factory was forced to hire US citizens to do the work at a rate they would work for the factory would close as their products would not be able to compete on price. This then off course leads to the stop imports rhetoric which leads to goods being made in the US as the US wont accept foreign goods however foreigners will then not accept US goods so the cost of living in the US goes up, ie inflation,  due to having to buy expensive US made goods and then the medicine is higher interest rates. The $ also circulates less in the world which makes US debt pile unsustainable and bang the US is in deeper crap than they are now.
The solution is not get rid of illegal workers that is a symptom the solution is something else entirely and that is lowering wages and living standards across the board and make Western economies competitive again, illegals will stop coming as the incentives and jobs will dry up for them, but instead of doing that in the past voters have voted to borrow more and keep our comforts export jobs to cheaper countries so that we get cheaper goods, we are nearing the end of our credit line and a lowering of our living standard will happen regardless, if we start now the drop will be less precipitous. Politicians need to tell the truth on how screwed our economies are so real discussions can take place on fixing them not promote short term policies like stopping migration as the magic pill to solve the economy's problems, but sadly voters will not vote in anyone who tells the truth so we are all partying as the world falls apart.
Not a pleasant message I am afraid but that is how I see this playing out.

So true. Much more pleasant listening to populists blaming EU, immigrants etc... 

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5 hours ago, jaycee said:

Out of curiosity who would do the low paid work these illegals do? Not Americans that's for sure they are the same as the UK 'workers' and will not work for that low a wage so the job does not get done as nobody can afford the wages that a native will work for. If a factory was forced to hire US citizens to do the work at a rate they would work for the factory would close as their products would not be able to compete on price. This then off course leads to the stop imports rhetoric which leads to goods being made in the US as the US wont accept foreign goods however foreigners will then not accept US goods so the cost of living in the US goes up, ie inflation,  due to having to buy expensive US made goods and then the medicine is higher interest rates. The $ also circulates less in the world which makes US debt pile unsustainable and bang the US is in deeper crap than they are now.
The solution is not get rid of illegal workers that is a symptom the solution is something else entirely and that is lowering wages and living standards across the board and make Western economies competitive again, illegals will stop coming as the incentives and jobs will dry up for them, but instead of doing that in the past voters have voted to borrow more and keep our comforts export jobs to cheaper countries so that we get cheaper goods, we are nearing the end of our credit line and a lowering of our living standard will happen regardless, if we start now the drop will be less precipitous. Politicians need to tell the truth on how screwed our economies are so real discussions can take place on fixing them not promote short term policies like stopping migration as the magic pill to solve the economy's problems, but sadly voters will not vote in anyone who tells the truth so we are all partying as the world falls apart.
Not a pleasant message I am afraid but that is how I see this playing out.

If you will note, we are basically saying the same things. 

My suggestion is to allow LEGAL immigration and LEGAL work permits and LEGAL asylum to those who qualify. Low wage jobs are available and low wage LEGAL workers want them. 

Yes, wages must go down, and no, the masses will not accept them. Which is why the pitchforks will come out and they will march on the Capitol demanding anyone's head that wants real change. 

I've said, "it's too late!" The "Kite" floated in USD has gone into the stratosphere. It must crash to earth, which in historical context is seen far in advance, but when it crashes, it happens quickly. 

Any attempt to correct the problem is met with higher interest rates, lack of global liquidity, and internal/external violence. Any politician promoting what actually must occur will never get elected, or re-elected. The citizens want someone other than themselves to pay the price of their past largesse, meaning the future after they are dead.

The acquisition of other people's assets by force (war) is about the only way to replenish the treasury and cancel debt at this point!   

The issues are biological, not political. People sin: lie, cheat, steal, obfuscate, manipulate...the seven deadly sins. If you believe, pray! 

Otherwise, Theresa May, Donald Trump, etc. are doomed to fail; they never had a chance. They are there only to continue the farse as long as possible, prolonging the spending until the end.

Any real change Trump or May achieve will result in their own people, the same people who encouraged them to power, to shoot them in the back! If I were May or Trump, I would have never run for office, would have resigned when the votes against change occurred, and bought a couple of the most beautiful islands around the world with my billions. May not be able to do this, but Trump could.

Trump should take his family and live an amazing retired life awaiting the demise of the Free World, the entire world, from a sandy beach in peace. Why would anyone continue to serve a nation that HATES so much? 

The people believe they will kill their country one day, then wake the next and just go on to work as they normally would. Here's a clue, after a successful suicide, you don't wake up the next day and read your name in the obituary! The hubris, arrogance, and ego are astounding! Humanity is predisposed to insanity and there is no going back! Greed, gluttony, sloth...virtue in America is dead!

Edited by Microbio-glutonist

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43 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

My suggestion is to allow LEGAL immigration and LEGAL work permits and LEGAL asylum to those who qualify. Low wage jobs are available and low wage LEGAL workers want them. 

That however is not what the voters want they want the migrants out same in Europe legal or not and they voted the Donald in to do that just like the blue collar workers voted Breixt to get rid of LEGAL migrants.

 

44 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Trump should take his family and live an amazing retired life awaiting the demise of the Free World, the entire world, from a sandy beach in peace. Why would anyone continue to serve a nation that HATES so much? 

You must have worked out by now Trump needs people to tell him he is great and whilst he is president many people tell him that, many don't but that's obviously fake news and stupid haters according to him. Living on an island away from adulation would be like being in a prison for him.

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15 minutes ago, jaycee said:

You must have worked out by now Trump needs people to tell him he is great and whilst he is a president many people tell him that, many don't but that's obviously fake news and stupid haters according to him. Living on an island away from adulation would be like being in a prison for him.

 

Actually, not. 

He would build hotels, swimming pools, and make it a tourist paradise; just without the dregs of society. 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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8 minutes ago, jaycee said:

That, however, is not what the voters want they want the migrants out same in Europe legal or not and they voted the Donald in to do that just like the blue-collar workers voted Brexit to get rid of LEGAL migrants.

 

Again, this exemplifies my "pitchfork" scenario, wherein, the people rise against the destruction of their wages and lifestyles. The misguided blame always lands on those in power attempting to enforce austerity measures EVERYONE wants to be imposed, BUT on "the other guy!" :) 

Yes, UK citizens want LOW-WAGE legal migrants out, so as to keep their wages artificially high. 

https://www.economicvoice.com/uk-national-debt-just-keeps-rising-and-were-stuck-with-it/

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2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

And it would cost a lot less than a wall... 

We spend on the order of 100 billion a year here in the US EVERY year on illegal immigration.  I don’t disagree with Jaycee’s synopsis about the need for cheap labor/immigrants and US/UK citizens not wanting to work for low wages.  That is true.  But, I am curious how a wall, which Trump has asked 5.7 billion for, is cheaper than the costs of illegal immigration to the US Tax Payer each year.  The math doesn’t work out.  

Add to the mix the enourmous cost of our social programs and the tax burden to fund them, we’d be better served by cutting these programs and letting the low-wage workers keep more of the money they earn so they can better provide for themselves.

The problem is chrony capitalism that sees the very rich keep so much of the income fruit of the laborers.  As argued above by @Microbio-glutonist this is a symptom of mans fallen nature.  A good example is Jeff Bezos, his workers make very little.  He makes a ton.  Bezos could at anytime decide to take less profit and double the salary and benefits of his employees.  So could Trump through his business holdings.  Any of these wealthy owners of production could.  They won’t.  

We are back to what spawned the workers unions of yesterday but unfortunately, this time, because they were so corrupt and drove themselves to the opposite end of the spectrum with greed and ridiculous, unsustainable contracts; they really can’t get the traction they need.  They are not trusted outside of their geographic enclaves.

There will always be low-wage jobs that need to be filled.  Unfortunately, it will take a depression, suffering and mass quantities of want to convince low-skilled Americans that those jobs aren’t below them.

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1 hour ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Again, this exemplifies my "pitchfork" scenario, wherein, the people rise against the destruction of their wages and lifestyles. The misguided blame always lands on those in power attempting to enforce austerity measures EVERYONE wants to be imposed, BUT on "the other guy!" :) 

No I disagree austerity is imposed but as a temporary measure the politicians always claim this and sure enough its lifted soon enough before any real changes are made and all is better again when in fact the country is on a trajectory to ruin and all they were doing is tinkering at the edges. A complete realignment of the economies of the West is what is needed and a discussion on how it should be done held with the public at the moment all we get is lying politicians saying whatever it takes to get elected. Donald is a prime example of the genre, wasting money on a border wall and claiming that American jobs for American workers is going to make it all better when in fact it is going to have very serious negative consequences like higher cost of living, inflation and potentially making the national debt unmanageable due to the removal of the $ as the world trade currency.

1 hour ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Yes, UK citizens want LOW-WAGE legal migrants out, so as to keep their wages artificially high. 

Off course they do, because nobody has explained the consequences to them. They are blaming the symptom just like the American workers.

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20 hours ago, TXPower said:

We spend on the order of 100 billion a year here in the US EVERY year on illegal immigration.  I don’t disagree with Jaycee’s synopsis about the need for cheap labor/immigrants and US/UK citizens not wanting to work for low wages.  That is true.  But, I am curious how a wall, which Trump has asked 5.7 billion for, is cheaper than the costs of illegal immigration to the US Tax Payer each year.  The math doesn’t work out.  

Add to the mix the enourmous cost of our social programs and the tax burden to fund them, we’d be better served by cutting these programs and letting the low-wage workers keep more of the money they earn so they can better provide for themselves.

The problem is chrony capitalism that sees the very rich keep so much of the income fruit of the laborers.  As argued above by @Microbio-glutonist this is a symptom of mans fallen nature.  A good example is Jeff Bezos, his workers make very little.  He makes a ton.  Bezos could at anytime decide to take less profit and double the salary and benefits of his employees.  So could Trump through his business holdings.  Any of these wealthy owners of production could.  They won’t.  

We are back to what spawned the workers unions of yesterday but unfortunately, this time, because they were so corrupt and drove themselves to the opposite end of the spectrum with greed and ridiculous, unsustainable contracts; they really can’t get the traction they need.  They are not trusted outside of their geographic enclaves.

There will always be low-wage jobs that need to be filled.  Unfortunately, it will take a depression, suffering and mass quantities of want to convince low-skilled Americans that those jobs aren’t below them.

I don't live in US (and I have never lived in a border state), so I can't fully speak for or against the wall. I reacted and commented @Boats comment on how to address illegal immigration. Going after the employeers would seem very effective to me. If the goal is to do somehting about illegal immigration why not do what can be done? 

ps. I don't agree with all of Jaycees synopsis, but certainly with parts. 

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24 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't live in US (and I have never lived in a border state), so I can't fully speak for or against the wall. I reacted and commented @Boats comment on how to address illegal immigration. Going after the employeers would seem very effective to me. If the goal is to do somehting about illegal immigration why not do what can be done? 

ps. I don't agree with all of Jaycees synopsis, but certainly with parts. 

Neither side wants to go after the employers. Fewer jobs for the illegals would mean higher costs for employers and fewer opportunities for illegals in the nation, so neither side of the debate will back go after the employers. They talk a tough game, but when money goes into the campaigns from big donors, the truth comes out. 

But, yes, you are correct. Big fines and loss of citizenship for employers if they get caught would immediately stop illegal immigration. 

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30 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't live in US (and I have never lived in a border state), so I can't fully speak for or against the wall. I reacted and commented @Boats comment on how to address illegal immigration. Going after the employeers would seem very effective to me. If the goal is to do somehting about illegal immigration why not do what can be done? 

ps. I don't agree with all of Jaycees synopsis, but certainly with parts. 

Rasmus, we are in agreement on going after employers.  Instant ID for employment would shut out the vast majority of illegal workers.  Unfortunately, as @Microbio-glutonist pointed out, the desire for cheap labor that ultimately ends in cheap goods and services, overrides our current national resolve to do something that would, I believe, effectively address a good bit of our illegal immigrant issue.

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21 hours ago, TXPower said:

 

 

You said, "The problem is crony capitalism that sees the very rich keep so much of the income fruit of the laborers.  As argued above by @Microbio-glutonist this is a symptom of man's fallen nature.  A good example is Jeff Bezos, his workers make very little.  He makes a ton.  Bezos could at anytime decide to take less profit and double the salary and benefits of his employees.  So could Trump through his business holdings.  Any of these wealthy owners of production could.  They won’t. " 

Jeff Bezos epitomizes the worst of America. However, he may die from America's own "free market" failure. The Bank of China USA will soon offer Yuan purchases for purchases on Internet platforms in America. Which means the middleman will be cut out. 

Americans are abusing the dollar to buy Chinese made products through Amazon and Brick and Mortar retailers.

"Logistics and supply-chain management" are what has created the economies of scale, efficiency, and value in retailing/e-tailing. The Chinese have shrewdly bought the transportation systems (Ports, roads, rails, ships, etc. "Belt and Road). The sheer stupidity of the world to allow all the factors of production and distribution into the hands of the communists is astounding. Each new fraction of savings comes from another incremental new manner of shaving a dime off the transportation and distribution. 

Americans are nothing but consumers of Chinese goods, delivered by Jeff Bezos through a corrupt system. Soon, the middleman will be gone and the only thing stopping the communists is America's ability to print, print, print! At some point, the well will run dry.

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On 1/22/2019 at 4:16 AM, jaycee said:

Out of curiosity who would do the low paid work these illegals do? Not Americans that's for sure they are the same as the UK 'workers' and will not work for that low a wage so the job does not get done as nobody can afford the wages that a native will work for. If a factory was forced to hire US citizens to do the work at a rate they would work for the factory would close as their products would not be able to compete on price. This then off course leads to the stop imports rhetoric which leads to goods being made in the US as the US wont accept foreign goods however foreigners will then not accept US goods so the cost of living in the US goes up, ie inflation,  due to having to buy expensive US made goods and then the medicine is higher interest rates. The $ also circulates less in the world which makes US debt pile unsustainable and bang the US is in deeper crap than they are now.
The solution is not get rid of illegal workers that is a symptom the solution is something else entirely and that is lowering wages and living standards across the board and make Western economies competitive again, illegals will stop coming as the incentives and jobs will dry up for them, but instead of doing that in the past voters have voted to borrow more and keep our comforts export jobs to cheaper countries so that we get cheaper goods, we are nearing the end of our credit line and a lowering of our living standard will happen regardless, if we start now the drop will be less precipitous. Politicians need to tell the truth on how screwed our economies are so real discussions can take place on fixing them not promote short term policies like stopping migration as the magic pill to solve the economy's problems, but sadly voters will not vote in anyone who tells the truth so we are all partying as the world falls apart.
Not a pleasant message I am afraid but that is how I see this playing out.

 

On 1/22/2019 at 6:32 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

So true. Much more pleasant listening to populists blaming EU, immigrants etc... 

Under the current paradigm of importing cheap labor and outsourcing manufacturing, we've gutted half the communities in this country, destroyed education (because these communities can't afford it), and thus broken the development path for new talent.  Cheap labor is eating our seed corn; it's not a sustainable solution.

Yes, higher wages would lead to some inflation, but the net effect for laborers would be nil.  It's the wealthy and the freeloaders who would suffer because their income will remain stagnant as they're forced to pay more for goods & services.  Rising wages would achieve the income/wealth equality leftists so love, whereas the leftist plans for open borders and free trade creates massive inequalities.  To wit: Rasmus's economic status means his political opinions on free trade and open borders are entirely self-serving.  It's rather convenient that those opinions can be couched as generosity. 

Of course, trade is good, but we must have some rules around it.  Here's an idea: tariffs should be based on inequalities in culture & regulation.  E.g. if the United States values a strong middle class with educational opportunities, upward mobility, reasonable working conditions, and a clean environment, then it should tariff imports from nations that do not provide the same  benefits to their citizens.  E.g. most of SE Asia.  Those of us who make good wages working comfortable office jobs in wealthy cities should be forced to pay higher prices so that those who produce what we consume can have opportunity. 

And if 3rd world countries want to achieve wealth and success, they should first figure out how to do that internally.  Once they have the hang of capitalism, we can talk about integrating them into the global economy.  The light-speed globalization we're pursuing now is just disruptive for everyone - except the wealthy, of course.  They're making out like bandits. 

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