UK, Stay in EU, Says Tusk

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

Brexit vote: EU president says UK remaining is only option ‘if a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal’

"The president of the European Council has dared British politicians to back remaining in the EU after Theresa May’s Brexit deal was voted down by the House of Commons by a historic margin of failure.

After MPs rejected the plan by 432 to 202 Donald Tusk said: “If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?”

How about that, eh? Just stay in the family. Problem solved. I must say I feel sorry for Theresa May. She's being put out there as the sole person responsible for everything around Brexit and being mocked savagely for all the failures. It's brutal.

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

Without a deal the choice will be between a no-deal Brexit and no Brexit at all. And time is seriously running out for a new deal. Given the havoc a no deal Brexit could cause to the British economy I would not rule out a new vote ending with a a different result and a no-Brexit.

Today May will face a no confidence vote but it seems the rebel conservative MPs and the DUP coalition partner who voted against May's Brexit Deal will nevertheless support the government so the numbers are probably not there for an overthrow of the PM.

For those not familiar with UK politics, here is a BBC News graphical explanation on how it works :

 

[jaycee + 348]

I have a belief this was the plan all along by Tusk, not give a good deal and watch the UK parliament go for a new referendum I believe a few UK politicians may have actually encouraged him in this belief. I think he has over played his hand personally and a hard Brexit is what will happen but the game is now beginning and the support for the myriad of options wanted by rival groups in Parliament will appear very soon once this pointless vote of no confidence is over tomorrow.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Lengthy article, covers a lot of ground, including May doing pretty much nothing about Brexit for 2 years, apparently wanting Brexit to fail.

Europe is Burning

... Where are the British Yellow Vests? The mayor of Poland’s second-biggest city, Gdansk, was stabbed to death in public on a stage where he held a speech, Is that where we’re going?

And lest we forget, what happens in Europe is not very different from what happens in the US; things merely play out slightly differently in different locations. In the US, as in the UK, there are no whole new parties taking over, no AfD and Macron and Yellow Vests and Salvini, but there is Trump and Brexit.

The common denominator is people’s anger with the economic models that leave them scrambling to make do, all the while seeing their lives being taken away from them bit by bit while whoever’s in power keeps bankers and other rich folk contented.

It’s not much use seeing all this as separate incidents or developments. It’s a big wave that will reshape the world as we know it. Let Them Eat Cake has gone global, and there’s not nearly enough cake to go round.

[jaycee + 348]

53 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Lengthy article, covers a lot of ground, including May doing pretty much nothing about Brexit for 2 years, apparently wanting Brexit to fail.

Europe is Burning

... Where are the British Yellow Vests? The mayor of Poland’s second-biggest city, Gdansk, was stabbed to death in public on a stage where he held a speech, Is that where we’re going?

And lest we forget, what happens in Europe is not very different from what happens in the US; things merely play out slightly differently in different locations. In the US, as in the UK, there are no whole new parties taking over, no AfD and Macron and Yellow Vests and Salvini, but there is Trump and Brexit.

The common denominator is people’s anger with the economic models that leave them scrambling to make do, all the while seeing their lives being taken away from them bit by bit while whoever’s in power keeps bankers and other rich folk contented.

It’s not much use seeing all this as separate incidents or developments. It’s a big wave that will reshape the world as we know it. Let Them Eat Cake has gone global, and there’s not nearly enough cake to go round.

May did her best I would say however she had no idea how to manage the EU who are past masters at screwing people at negotiations. They played a blinder and the UK politicians who should have supported May were constantly sniping from the wings. We needed a better prime minister I do not think she was idle by any means just clueless.

Had the main opposition party, Labour,actually abided by their general election promises of supporting Brexit she may have had a better deal but the obvious splits encouraged the EU to play hard and give such a bad deal they knew it would fail knowing that chaos would ensue. They are now gambling that there will be enough of their 'friends' in the UK parliament to force a new referendum and thus get the Remain vote they want but judging by the way Parliament is split just now I cannot see anything concrete emerging hence Hard Brexit will happen. This may all change next week off course when all the plans various parties have made for this point are taken out the cupboard as there are some seriously devious people working to bring down Brexit and they knew this would happen.

[specinho + 470]

8 hours ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

Without a deal the choice will be between a no-deal Brexit and no Brexit at all. And time is seriously running out for a new deal. Given the havoc a no deal Brexit could cause to the British economy I would not rule out a new vote ending with a a different result and a no-Brexit.

Today May will face a no confidence vote but it seems the rebel conservative MPs and the DUP coalition partner who voted against May's Brexit Deal will nevertheless support the government so the numbers are probably not there for an overthrow of the PM.

For those not familiar with UK politics, here is a BBC News graphical explanation on how it works :

 

We might have missed out the long forgotten voice and right of the King and Queen as the highest and ultimate decision makers of the fate of England.............. In a democratic parliamentary system of a monarchy country......... royals reserve the ultimate right to over-rule or approve as they see best fitted for the country. Years of complacent in commoners-turned-nobles assisting goverment........ might have made us forgotten the duty of the royals in monarchy countries............. They might be not merely a symbol of existence but something more especially during important and unsettling dispute that affects the whole country...........

There is a government somewhere in the tropic...... tried to overpower the Monarch by writing off a few of their rights in the parliament not very long ago......... and yes............. back fired................. Not sure if that act has awakened the dormant royals and their desire to be more than a symbol again........................... ??!!........ Why are we going through this?? 

[Auson + 123]

5 hours ago, jaycee said:

May did her best I would say however she had no idea how to manage the EU who are past masters at screwing people at negotiations. They played a blinder and the UK politicians who should have supported May were constantly sniping from the wings. We needed a better prime minister I do not think she was idle by any means just clueless.

Had the main opposition party, Labour,actually abided by their general election promises of supporting Brexit she may have had a better deal but the obvious splits encouraged the EU to play hard and give such a bad deal they knew it would fail knowing that chaos would ensue. They are now gambling that there will be enough of their 'friends' in the UK parliament to force a new referendum and thus get the Remain vote they want but judging by the way Parliament is split just now I cannot see anything concrete emerging hence Hard Brexit will happen. This may all change next week off course when all the plans various parties have made for this point are taken out the cupboard as there are some seriously devious people working to bring down Brexit and they knew this would happen.

'Where are the British yellow vests ?' Oh come on we're not French ! Thats just not how we do things, although the Yooth do like the odd riot ( as shown in 2011 ) but only when they can steal flat screen TVs and the like. 

I think there will be an extension to Article 50 ( maybe 1 year then another etc etc ) 

Doing nothing is probably the best out come to this sh..t show

[jaycee + 348]

52 minutes ago, Auson said:

'Where are the British yellow vests ?' Oh come on we're not French ! Thats just not how we do things, although the Yooth do like the odd riot ( as shown in 2011 ) but only when they can steal flat screen TVs and the like. 

I think there will be an extension to Article 50 ( maybe 1 year then another etc etc ) 

Doing nothing is probably the best out come to this sh..t show

I disagree doing nothing is costing business a lot of money in uncertainty the sooner we finalise things the better.

 

[Auson + 123]

3 hours ago, jaycee said:

I disagree doing nothing is costing business a lot of money in uncertainty the sooner we finalise things the better.

 

jaycee,

Sorry I should have been more specific I meant going forward not crashing out would preferable. I fully accept that the last 2 years of uncertainty has cost business, investment and sentiment.

[WaytoPeace + 62]

Although the British voted 52% to leave the EU, that is sort of like a couple agreeing to buy a house.  It looks good and seems to meet their needs, but then comes the inspection report.  All of a sudden it becomes clear that the necessary repairs are going to cost a lot more than the couple ever imagined.  Of course, they should be given the opportunity to change their minds.  Polls show that more voters would prefer to stay in the EU than would want a hard exit, or even the deal that May was able to negotiate.  They should try one last time to get a better deal, with a the deadline, and then if they can’t do that have a second referendum and abide by the result.  

[Illurion + 894]

They had a vote to exit,  and they voted to exit.

It is done.

All of the political sabotage that has occurred simply proves that the BREXIT vote was the correct decision.

I do not believe all the garbage being spread that England will lose out in a "hard brexit" .

The parliament has rejected May's stupid deal with the EU.

Good.

So,  now they need to go ahead and exit without a deal...

England has survived much worse things in the past.

I have faith in the English.

I would hope that Queen Elizabeth steps in with a national speech backing a hard brexit, and stating that everyone will be fine.

[jaycee + 348]

5 hours ago, Illurion said:

They had a vote to exit,  and they voted to exit.

It is done.

All of the political sabotage that has occurred simply proves that the BREXIT vote was the correct decision.

I do not believe all the garbage being spread that England will lose out in a "hard brexit" .

The parliament has rejected May's stupid deal with the EU.

Good.

So,  now they need to go ahead and exit without a deal...

England has survived much worse things in the past.

I have faith in the English.

I would hope that Queen Elizabeth steps in with a national speech backing a hard brexit, and stating that everyone will be fine.

UK is the correct term England is not leaving alone there are 3 other countries.

[jaycee + 348]

6 hours ago, WaytoPeace said:

Although the British voted 52% to leave the EU, that is sort of like a couple agreeing to buy a house.  It looks good and seems to meet their needs, but then comes the inspection report.  All of a sudden it becomes clear that the necessary repairs are going to cost a lot more than the couple ever imagined.  Of course, they should be given the opportunity to change their minds.  Polls show that more voters would prefer to stay in the EU than would want a hard exit, or even the deal that May was able to negotiate.  They should try one last time to get a better deal, with a the deadline, and then if they can’t do that have a second referendum and abide by the result.  

Its called democracy something many people in the UK just now are forgetting the meaning off, you cannot change direction every time there appears to be problems the decision was made everyone got a chance to voice their opinion, move forward there was always going to be a downside to leaving the EU was well as the upside which will come in the years after we leave short term there will be problems just like any divorce but when a union is not right its better to end it.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

19 hours ago, jaycee said:

May did her best I would say however she had no idea how to manage the EU who are past masters at screwing people at negotiations. They played a blinder and the UK politicians who should have supported May were constantly sniping from the wings. We needed a better prime minister I do not think she was idle by any means just clueless.

The EU is not a charity - their obligation is to find the best model for the EU. As the UK government has an obligation to find the best model for the UK. If that means hard brexit then that's it. This is a decision for the UK parliament and voters. 

what I find interesting is that all of parliament really do not want a hard brexit - maybe the consequences will be different than what the politicians promised their voters.... that tends to motivate politicians. 

[jaycee + 348]

8 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

The EU is not a charity - their obligation is to find the best model for the EU. As the UK government has an obligation to find the best model for the UK. If that means hard brexit then that's it. This is a decision for the UK parliament and voters. 

what I find interesting is that all of parliament really do not want a hard brexit - maybe the consequences will be different than what the politicians promised their voters.... that tends to motivate politicians. 

The EU side of the negotiations have been ideologically based and aimed at stopping the UK leaving the Union they have never negotiated on actually making a deal that works for both sides. The Irish backstop was never ever going to be acceptable to the UK government for the simple fact they need the support of the DUP to have a majority and the DUP will never support anything that might put Northern Ireland on different terms of trade than the rest of the UK and at the same time closer to the Republic. If Tusk thought the deal he offered was fair he is an idiot and I am certain he is not which means he knew he was offering an impossible to accept deal to force a crisis in the UK and therefore a new referendum. I think he is going to lose the gamble and will have to either backtrack fast on his red lines or accept a hard Brexit which does nobody any good. Many possibilities though are still open as discussions are only just beginning in the UK parliament to find something a majority can agree on but it looks like there isn't one so far which means hard Brexit by default.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

17 minutes ago, jaycee said:

The EU side of the negotiations have been ideologically based and aimed at stopping the UK leaving the Union they have never negotiated on actually making a deal that works for both sides. The Irish backstop was never ever going to be acceptable to the UK government for the simple fact they need the support of the DUP to have a majority and the DUP will never support anything that might put Northern Ireland on different terms of trade than the rest of the UK and at the same time closer to the Republic. If Tusk thought the deal he offered was fair he is an idiot and I am certain he is not which means he knew he was offering an impossible to accept deal to force a crisis in the UK and therefore a new referendum. I think he is going to lose the gamble and will have to either backtrack fast on his red lines or accept a hard Brexit which does nobody any good. Many possibilities though are still open as discussions are only just beginning in the UK parliament to find something a majority can agree on but it looks like there isn't one so far which means hard Brexit by default.

As far as I understand the EU will still respect a hard brexit, no? so what's the problem? If the UK can put UK interests first, then surely the EU can put EU interests first, no?

Maybe the EU are walking a thin a line between giving as much as they can without being too generous so as to avoid others leaving? 

That to me is fair play. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[jaycee + 348]

10 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

As far as I understand the EU will still respect a hard brexit, no? so what's the problem? If the UK can put UK interests first, then surely the EU can put EU interests first, no?

Maybe the EU are walking a thin a line between giving as much as they can without being too generous so as to avoid others leaving? 

That to me is fair play. 

Yes the EU will respect a hard Brexit they have no option that is not a problem however the consequences are bad for certain countries in Europe and industries, for instance the German car industry will suffer massively as will Irish farmers, infact Ireland may need EU help to survive in the event of a Hard Brexit. Neither side wants this but currently the EU have not offered anything that will pass through the UK parliament they have to change what they are offering to stop Hard Brexit there is a massive majority against the deal on offer there always would be and they knew this they were not negotiating to make a deal that would work and in the end that is what both sides need. The UK does not want a hard border with the Republic neither does the EU so there is no real dispute but the EU insist on a deal that ties the UK to the EU until the EU unilateraly decides the UK has agreed to what the EU wants for a border, nobody in their right mind can sign up to that crap.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

22 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Yes the EU will respect a hard Brexit they have no option that is not a problem however the consequences are bad for certain countries in Europe and industries, for instance the German car industry will suffer massively as will Irish farmers, infact Ireland may need EU help to survive in the event of a Hard Brexit. Neither side wants this but currently the EU have not offered anything that will pass through the UK parliament they have to change what they are offering to stop Hard Brexit there is a massive majority against the deal on offer there always would be and they knew this they were not negotiating to make a deal that would work and in the end that is what both sides need. The UK does not want a hard border with the Republic neither does the EU so there is no real dispute but the EU insist on a deal that ties the UK to the EU until the EU unilateraly decides the UK has agreed to what the EU wants for a border, nobody in their right mind can sign up to that crap.

don't forget the economic consequenses to UK. 

[jaycee + 348]

51 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

don't forget the economic consequenses to UK. 

What of being tied to the EU while they decide what further concessions they will wring from the UK before agreeing to the Irish border being acceptable? No deal is far quicker and cheaper that signing a blank cheque to the EU.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

2 minutes ago, jaycee said:

What of being tied to the EU while they decide what further concessions they will wring from the UK before agreeing to the Irish border being acceptable?

No. Of a hard brexit. 

[jaycee + 348]

12 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

No. Of a hard brexit. 

The choice at the moment is the EU deal with Irish backstop or Hard Brexit, Hard Brexit is the cheapest option doesnt matter the consequences taking an open ended commitment that the deal represents would ruin the UK. The EU need to offer something else not the UK.

Edited January 17, 2019 by jaycee
clarification

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, jaycee said:

The choice at the moment is the EU deal with Irish backstop or Hard Brexit, Hard Brexit is the cheapest option doesnt matter the consequences taking an open ended commitment that the deal represents would ruin the UK. The EU need to offer something else not the UK.

Sorry. Agree on that perspective. 

[Illurion + 894]

12 hours ago, jaycee said:

UK is the correct term England is not leaving alone there are 3 other countries.

I know...

But to me,  they are all the English....

It is the way i prefer to view them.

[Illurion + 894]

10 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

As far as I understand the EU will still respect a hard brexit, no? so what's the problem? If the UK can put UK interests first, then surely the EU can put EU interests first, no?

Maybe the EU are walking a thin a line between giving as much as they can without being too generous so as to avoid others leaving? 

That to me is fair play. 

similar to "playing chicken"

who will blink.

[TXPower + 643]

England, sorry Jaycee, the U.K., is made up of strong and resilient people.   She has survived the Northman, some terrible Kings, Plagues, Hitler and so many other things.  The U.K. will survive this and prosper.

 

“Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way........” Pink Floyd-Time, The Dark Side of The Moon