Solar and Wind Will Not "Save" the Climate

Presented without my usual comments, for your consideration.  Excellent article:

We Don't Need Solar And Wind To Save The Climate -- And It's A Good Thing, Too

For 30 years, experts have claimed that humankind needs to switch to solar and wind energy to address climate change. But do we really?

Consider the fact that, while no nation has created a near-zero carbon electricity supply out of solar and wind, the only successful efforts to create near-zero carbon electricity supplies didn’t require solar or wind whatsoever.

As such solar and wind aren’t just insufficient, they are also unnecessary for solving climate change. ...

 

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Bonus article from the wags at ZeroHedge:

Winter Is Wreaking Havoc On Electric Vehicles

If there’s one thing electric vehicle owners are learning, it is that extremely cold temperatures are likely going to lead to frustration if they don’t take extra special care of their battery powered vehicles. Look at it as just another added benefit to "saving the world".

As we push through the cold that automakers are using as an excuse for poor sales this winter, customers of some companies – notably Tesla – are starting to realize that things are a little bit different with electric vehicles in the winter. Disgruntled owners of Model 3s have been widespread on social media and online forums, talking about numerous issues they’ve had with cold weather on their vehicles. People have complained about battery range draining and Model 3 door handles freezing up. ...

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(edited)

The linked article is a crock of cobblers.

It says:

"Sunlight and wind are inherently unreliable and energy-dilute. As such, adding solar panels and wind turbines to the grid in large quantities increases the cost of generating electricity, locks in fossil fuels, and increases the environmental footprint of energy production."

Whereas the facts are:

  • Weather patterns are very predictable, so the unreliability claim is a nonsense.
  • The "energy-dilute" nature of wind and solar is accounted for in capacity ratings - it's a meaningless sense in the context of electricity generating markets.
  • "Adding solar panels and wind turbines to the grid in large quantities" does not increase the cost of generating electricity.  He clearly has no idea of the concept of LCOE.  Adding any new capacity to the grid will increase the cost of the distribution network.
  • Grid-scale wind and solar are cheaper without incentives than coal, and depending on circumstances match or better CCGTs.
  • The claim that fossil fuels are locked in is total rubbish.  Look at every nation's chart where wind and solar are now critical additions and the incontrovertible fact is that fossil fuels are a diminishing proportion of total energy.
  • Finally, the wonderful red herring of Germany is always tossed in by the ignoranti.  If the idiot writer knew what he was talking about then the price of electricity in Germany should be increasing markedly.  Instead, over the past 4 years it is unchanged despite a massive increase in renewables capacity.  In fact Europe as a whole has seen relatively stable electricity costs since 2010, clearly showing the writer's ineptitude.

Tom is right in that it is an excellent article, but only in relation to getting almost every pertinent fact wrong.

Edited by Red
Added info on Germany.
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The linked articles seems planted article from advocates of fossil fuels and anti solar /wind brigade. It speaks solar/wind are unreliable, insufficient and costly and therefore not good fuel.. We should also go for hydroelectric and nuclear fuels and reduce dependence on fossil fuels.  It is undeniable fact  that for decades we have invested billions of dollar to develop technology to build the industry of fossil fuels and IC engines despite knowing the fact the they are not only dirty fuels but also created highly polluting industries around the globe . Right from their extraction to their end use of each and every component, these are highly polluting and highly hazardous to the environment . All the developed countries and the developing and poor countries have become highly dependent on fossil fuels and economy of most of the OPEC nations are highly dependent on them. Human greed knows no bar. Big Oil Corporate lobbyists, special interest groups, paid agents are relentlessly trying to promote and prolong the use of Fossil fuels and project alternate fuels as grossly insufficient to meet the current energy demands of the globe. There is no denying of the fact that to create a world of  clean energy we not only  need time and technology but also money and mind to switch over from dirty fuels to save the planet. 

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What a cr4p article. Despite the fact its published in mid May 2018 the author posts a chart for electricity generation that ends in 2008. Furthermore using France as an example is poor because France is exceptional in that it is so reliant on nuclear which has crowded out other technologies because the state has championed this particular technology.

Globally wind has at least 5x the installed capacity in 2018 compared to 2008. Solar has at least 10x the capacity in 2018 as was in place in 2008.

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8 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Bonus article from the wags at ZeroHedge:

Winter Is Wreaking Havoc On Electric Vehicles

If there’s one thing electric vehicle owners are learning, it is that extremely cold temperatures are likely going to lead to frustration if they don’t take extra special care of their battery powered vehicles. Look at it as just another added benefit to "saving the world".

As we push through the cold that automakers are using as an excuse for poor sales this winter, customers of some companies – notably Tesla – are starting to realize that things are a little bit different with electric vehicles in the winter. Disgruntled owners of Model 3s have been widespread on social media and online forums, talking about numerous issues they’ve had with cold weather on their vehicles. People have complained about battery range draining and Model 3 door handles freezing up. ...

These issues are not unique to EV's. Cold weather significantly affects ICE fuel economy too.

I fill the wifes car every week (Toyota Hybrid) to full and set the fuel economy gauge to measure it (geek that I am). She normally manages around 50 mpg in mild winter weather but during the winter blizzards in late Feb 2018 the fuel economy fell to 43mpg. On a 10 gallon tank that would change the range from 600 miles to 430miles.

Likewise I recall treating the door handles with WD40 because they were freezing up.

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My first thought was that the battery should be in a well insulated box with a little heater to get it warm before and during use. Something like the engine block heater I had to put on my car in Colorado so it would start in the morning.

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16 hours ago, Sukumar Ray said:

The linked articles seems planted article from advocates of fossil fuels and anti solar /wind brigade. It speaks solar/wind are unreliable, insufficient and costly and therefore not good fuel.. We should also go for hydroelectric and nuclear fuels and reduce dependence on fossil fuels.  It is undeniable fact  that for decades we have invested billions of dollar to develop technology to build the industry of fossil fuels and IC engines despite knowing the fact the they are not only dirty fuels but also created highly polluting industries around the globe . Right from their extraction to their end use of each and every component, these are highly polluting and highly hazardous to the environment . All the developed countries and the developing and poor countries have become highly dependent on fossil fuels and economy of most of the OPEC nations are highly dependent on them. Human greed knows no bar. Big Oil Corporate lobbyists, special interest groups, paid agents are relentlessly trying to promote and prolong the use of Fossil fuels and project alternate fuels as grossly insufficient to meet the current energy demands of the globe. There is no denying of the fact that to create a world of  clean energy we not only  need time and technology but also money and mind to switch over from dirty fuels to save the planet. 

The article promotes nuclear not fossil fuels. I oppose nuclear and promote natural gas as the best solution. The costs of other renewables are, so far not competitive (aside from hydro).

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These issues are not unique to EV's. Cold weather significantly affects ICE fuel economy too.

I fill the wifes car every week (Toyota Hybrid) to full and set the fuel economy gauge to measure it (geek that I am). She normally manages around 50 mpg in mild winter weather but during the winter blizzards in late Feb 2018 the fuel economy fell to 43mpg. On a 10 gallon tank that would change the range from 600 miles to 430miles.

 

Huh ??  Is this the "new math" from that new fangled battery operated Alexa calculator -- :S

 

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Nothing will 'save' the climate - it will be here, in some form, no matter what. It may not be particularly salutary to higher order life, but that's a detail. The obvious first issue is the semantics.

The 14th century saw the die off of half of the population of Europe from the Black Death. The 'Spanish Flu' of 1918 wiped out 50 million people - more than died in the direct engagement of WW I. It doesn't take a climate disaster to flush vast quantities of humans off the planet.

Antarctic ice cores record events in the past, usually volcanic eruptions, that resulted in massive starvation. Some of these occurred as recently as the 1820's. The collapse of the Western Roman empire in 535 AD is one example. The French Revolution may have been triggered by starvation from crop failure, a climate event triggered by an Icelandic volcano.

'Wind and Solar' aren't too helpful by themselves. Power storage system(s) is/are the 'third leg' of the tripod. The technical means to do this is pretty much self evident. The nuclear, hydro, and coal people are going to get increasingly desperate in their pleas as the renewable infrastructure settles into place.

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19 hours ago, Red said:
  • Weather patterns are very predictable, so the unreliability claim is a nonsense.
  • The "energy-dilute" nature of wind and solar is accounted for in capacity ratings - it's a meaningless sense in the context of electricity generating markets.
  • "Adding solar panels and wind turbines to the grid in large quantities" does not increase the cost of generating electricity.  He clearly has no idea of the concept of LCOE.  Adding any new capacity to the grid will increase the cost of the distribution network.
  • Grid-scale wind and solar are cheaper without incentives than coal, and depending on circumstances match or better CCGTs.

 

16 hours ago, Sukumar Ray said:

The linked articles seems planted article from advocates of fossil fuels and anti solar /wind brigade. It speaks solar/wind are unreliable, insufficient and costly and therefore not good fuel.. We should also go for hydroelectric and nuclear fuels and reduce dependence on fossil fuels. 

Red - your stuff is becoming more hysterical and more inaccurate. This statement in particular "Weather patterns are very predictable".. no one has ever made that claim. The problem of intermittency (wind, solar only working part of the time) has been the subject of considerable discussion with claims that geographical spread of the generating units will fix the problem (it hasn't to date), or through storage (good luck with that). There was talk that weather forecasting systems might overcome some of the disadvantages of wind and solar but they haven't been mentioned for years now. 

 

Sukumar - the article was in fact quite correct. Wind and solar on a grid are far more expensive than any conventional generator. The LCOE which Red raves about does not take into account the cost of being on a grid. As for the coal conspiracies which seem to obsess you, I won't try and break into your fantasies but do you know how I can become a member? I've always wanted to be a part of a conspiracy (and be paid for it). 

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36 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Red - your stuff is becoming more hysterical and more inaccurate. This statement in particular "Weather patterns are very predictable".. no one has ever made that claim. The problem of intermittency (wind, solar only working part of the time) has been the subject of considerable discussion with claims that geographical spread of the generating units will fix the problem (it hasn't to date), or through storage (good luck with that). There was talk that weather forecasting systems might overcome some of the disadvantages of wind and solar but they haven't been mentioned for years now. 

 

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3 hours ago, markslawson said:

Copied below with my comments in red.

Red - your stuff is becoming more hysterical and more inaccurate. This statement in particular "Weather patterns are very predictable".. no one has ever made that claim.  False.  All generators of renewables use at least 2 metrics.  First are climate averages.  Second are weather forecasts.   Third would be their own data which over the years will have given them a degree of accuracy specific to highly localised factors.

The problem of intermittency (wind, solar only working part of the time) has been the subject of considerable discussion with claims that geographical spread of the generating units will fix the problem (it hasn't to date), or through storage (good luck with that).  You really mean subject of considerable internet discussion from the ignoranti.  Intermittency is a "given" and factored in to capacity calculations.

There was talk that weather forecasting systems might overcome some of the disadvantages of wind and solar but they haven't been mentioned for years now.  Maybe where you come from, but that's very outdated.

Sukumar - the article was in fact quite correct. False. Wind and solar on a grid are far more expensive than any conventional generator. The LCOE which Red raves about does not take into account the cost of being on a grid.  That's a completely different metric: Generation and distribution are not the same, but you cannot grasp that fact. 

Stick to what you are good at because you seem inept here.

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(edited)

8 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Red - your stuff is becoming more hysterical and more inaccurate. This statement in particular "Weather patterns are very predictable".. no one has ever made that claim. The problem of intermittency (wind, solar only working part of the time) has been the subject of considerable discussion with claims that geographical spread of the generating units will fix the problem (it hasn't to date), or through storage (good luck with that). There was talk that weather forecasting systems might overcome some of the disadvantages of wind and solar but they haven't been mentioned for years now. 

 

Sukumar - the article was in fact quite correct. Wind and solar on a grid are far more expensive than any conventional generator. The LCOE which Red raves about does not take into account the cost of being on a grid. As for the coal conspiracies which seem to obsess you, I won't try and break into your fantasies but do you know how I can become a member? I've always wanted to be a part of a conspiracy (and be paid for it). 

Mark you are already a member and doing your fantastic job . Paid or not , but you are already in the business in full swing. Pen is mightier than sword and  your voice ( writing ) is  capable of reaching to millions and this is a very powerful tool. Politicians purchase journalists , news editors for false propaganda and they are called presstitute. We all are doing our jobs silently !.  Those in the Left  would blame Right and the Right would blame the Left. There  would be always  North South and East West apart and fighting . Peep into the history. Left has always fought Right . As for example North Korea South Korea. East Germany-West Germany, North and South Vietnam. USA and USSR etc. etc. 

Edited by Sukumar Ray
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The premise offered is flawed as global climate change is a lie fabricated by the global elites so they can manipulate the ignorant masses to push Agenda 21 now 2030.  See their paper titled "The First Global Revolution" published by an NGO the Club of Rome, a truly "elitist" organization, in which they openly state they were searching for a cause so big that it would frighten the masses to the point where the elitists could then easily force their agenda on them.  They decided that global warming, at the time  when the paper was released, to be that cause saying that "the enemy of Humanity is Man".

Since then they have used their considerable resources, largely stolen from taxpayers but also given from wealthy sympathizers who lusted after more wealth, to bribe scientists through grants and other means to publish poorly designed studies now proven to be such to reinforce their premise thereby serving as the impetus leading the governments to come to the rescue of the world by reducing and eventually banning all fossil fuel use, replacing it with the wonderful sustainable green technologies so mankind would live in peace and harmony forever.

Of course they hid the truth which was that global climate change was a naturally occurring phenomenon that mankind did not effect.  Plus they did not care anyway as their goal was to implement a scheme of carbon credits to tax the polluters in order to redistribute the wealth, a theme oft repeated by the Novus Ordum Seculorum proponents who are nothing but communists in disguise.  But they could not bribe everyone and little by little their lie was exposed as even photographers paid to show poor polar bears floating on tiny pieces of the once mighty polar ice packs drifted about as their own lives drifted away into seeming extinction, which was rubbish as the photographer admitted the photograph was a fake, as was most of the data claiming anthropogenic climate change was real.

So why bother arguing whether renewable energy sources can solve a problem when the problem is a fabrication to begin?

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3 hours ago, Mike Travis said:

The premise offered is flawed as global climate change is a lie fabricated by the global elites so they can manipulate the ignorant masses to push Agenda 21 now 2030. 

Claims devoid if facts, such as about climate science, show you are just one of the many posting here who are totally clueless.

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21 hours ago, Happy Go Lucky said:

These issues are not unique to EV's. Cold weather significantly affects ICE fuel economy too.

I fill the wifes car every week (Toyota Hybrid) to full and set the fuel economy gauge to measure it (geek that I am). She normally manages around 50 mpg in mild winter weather but during the winter blizzards in late Feb 2018 the fuel economy fell to 43mpg. On a 10 gallon tank that would change the range from 600 miles to 430miles.

 

Huh ??  Is this the "new math" from that new fangled battery operated Alexa calculator -- :S

 

Fair cop - typo - I meant 500 miles. 

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21 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Red - your stuff is becoming more hysterical and more inaccurate. This statement in particular "Weather patterns are very predictable".. no one has ever made that claim. The problem of intermittency (wind, solar only working part of the time) has been the subject of considerable discussion with claims that geographical spread of the generating units will fix the problem (it hasn't to date), or through storage (good luck with that). There was talk that weather forecasting systems might overcome some of the disadvantages of wind and solar but they haven't been mentioned for years now. 

 

Sukumar - the article was in fact quite correct. Wind and solar on a grid are far more expensive than any conventional generator. The LCOE which Red raves about does not take into account the cost of being on a grid. As for the coal conspiracies which seem to obsess you, I won't try and break into your fantasies but do you know how I can become a member? I've always wanted to be a part of a conspiracy (and be paid for it). 

Contemporary analysis and prediction of outputs from multiple wind farms are extremely accurate these days. The annual average out turns are usually within +/- 3% of the -1 hour forecast.

https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=generation/windforcast/out-turn

This is the wind out turn report from BM reports (UK) which also shows initial and latest forecast. Invariable the out turn mirrors closely the forecast outputs. 

As for solar, the ability to tell the time, use a calendar, know the latitude & longitude of the position of the solar farm is a good starting point to predicting out put. The ability to interpret weather reports further improves accuracy. These skills have been around for 100's and in some cases 1000's of years. The progressive accumulation of data further hones the accuracy of future predictions. 

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14 hours ago, Sukumar Ray said:

Mark you are already a member and doing your fantastic job . Paid or not , but you are already in the business in full swing. Pen is mightier than sword and  your voice ( writing ) is  capable of reaching to millions and this is a very powerful tool. Politicians purchase journalists , news editors for false propaganda and they are called presstitute. We all are doing our jobs silently !.  Those in the Left  would blame Right and the Right would blame the Left. There  would be always  North South and East West apart and fighting . Peep into the history. Left has always fought Right . As for example North Korea South Korea. East Germany-West Germany, North and South Vietnam. USA and USSR etc. etc. 

Sukumar - oh wow! I may quote you elsewhere as I guy who is truly lost in conspiracy theories. But I am sort-of interested on one point, you do know the cold war is over right? Except for the Korean stand-off all the conflicts you cite are pre-1990, but even the Korean thing is now technically not left-right, but hereditary totalitarian state versus every other state. Otherwise Sukumar I'll return to my penury unsupported by any of these shadowy interests you speak off and leave you to you delusions. Careful of what's under the bed now!

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On 2/3/2019 at 8:32 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

Presented without my usual comments, for your consideration.  Excellent article:

We Don't Need Solar And Wind To Save The Climate -- And It's A Good Thing, Too

For 30 years, experts have claimed that humankind needs to switch to solar and wind energy to address climate change. But do we really?

Consider the fact that, while no nation has created a near-zero carbon electricity supply out of solar and wind, the only successful efforts to create near-zero carbon electricity supplies didn’t require solar or wind whatsoever.

As such solar and wind aren’t just insufficient, they are also unnecessary for solving climate change. ...

 

I'm surprised you shared this as the author isn't denying climate change. 

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(edited)

On 2/3/2019 at 8:51 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

Bonus article from the wags at ZeroHedge:

Winter Is Wreaking Havoc On Electric Vehicles

If there’s one thing electric vehicle owners are learning, it is that extremely cold temperatures are likely going to lead to frustration if they don’t take extra special care of their battery powered vehicles. Look at it as just another added benefit to "saving the world".

As we push through the cold that automakers are using as an excuse for poor sales this winter, customers of some companies – notably Tesla – are starting to realize that things are a little bit different with electric vehicles in the winter. Disgruntled owners of Model 3s have been widespread on social media and online forums, talking about numerous issues they’ve had with cold weather on their vehicles. People have complained about battery range draining and Model 3 door handles freezing up. ...

What a joke, ICE cars fail to start in the cold all the time.  Frozen batteries, bad coolant freezing, gas line ice...  Even with a block heater gas cars suffer in the cold.  Yeah people plug in their cars all night - wasting tons of power - and it doesn't even charge your battery.

 

Edited by Enthalpic

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33 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm surprised you shared this as the author isn't denying climate change. 

It's the overall message that I thought was good to share.

Climate does indeed change.  I am simply sceptical that humans are a significant factor in natural climate change cycles.

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3 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

It's the overall message that I thought was good to share.

Climate does indeed change.  I am simply sceptical that humans are a significant factor in natural climate change cycles.

Would be good if it bore some semblance to reality.

Your links on climate matters are inept, and your opinions do not bear any resemblance to what is understood from climate science: your scepticism is sheer ignorance as is continuously demonstrated in various threads here.

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I tend to lurk more than I post, and read more than I write.  It does distress me though when we drop below the civility line.  Please accept and understand there are a lot of differing opinions on this forum.  Even if you don't agree with them, please be kind to each other 🙂

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26 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

I tend to lurk more than I post, and read more than I write.  It does distress me though when we drop below the civility line.  Please accept and understand there are a lot of differing opinions on this forum.  Even if you don't agree with them, please be kind to each other 🙂

I agree. 

Many memes and statements about leftist on this forum are way below the civility line. 

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