.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

On 7/15/2019 at 10:32 PM, Toranaga said:

The real problem in what you are saying is that the institutionalized values of human rights come directly from what Jesus said and did

I agree that what is defined as "christian cultural heritage" today generally have influenced Western society in  positive way, but that is because our interpretation of Bible have changed. 

From the little I have read of the Qoran it is my impression that the issue here also is interpretation - i.e. as @John Foote put it : What man does with the message of God says more about man than scripture. For example - nobody blames the bible for the sexual crimes committed by catholic priests... 

[Toranaga + 49]

6 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I agree that what is defined as "christian cultural heritage" today generally have influenced Western society in  positive way, but that is because our interpretation of Bible have changed. 

From the little I have read of the Qoran it is my impression that the issue here also is interpretation - i.e. as @John Foote put it : What man does with the message of God says more about man than scripture. For example - nobody blames the bible for the sexual crimes committed by catholic priests... 

 

Let's look at an article that is contrary to my position  [https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788] . The article talks about the story of King Saul and the Amelikites:  "It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."     
 

What would Jesus have done? He would have preached, shared fish et cetera. He would have had disciples among the Indians. Early Christianity spread peacefully, despite the violence perpetrated against Christians (feeding them to the lions in the Roman coliseum). What would Muhammad have done?  You can read the Wikipedia page. There were a lot of battles, invasions, and expulsions. He preached in Mecca, had to flee, and in Medina it got violent. The verse, "There is no compulsion in religion" is said to have been written in Mecca. The verses written in Medina were more violent. My understanding is that verses written later abrogate verses written earlier.  If Muslims had settled America in the 1600s, this is what the Koran 9:29 told (and still tells) them to do:  
 

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

So the Indians would have the choice of converting to Islam or willingly paying a tax while they are humbled.   

Would Islam have proceeded violently against the Indians if Islam had settled the New World in the 1500s-1600s?  Well, they were still trying to seize Vienna in 1683. 

Much of what the Spaniards and the English did in the New World was distinctly unchristian. (The church did send peaceful missionaries, William Penn did nearly spend himself in bankruptcy by buying land from the Indians at good prices).  

My overall point at this time is that humans are violent creatures.  Nearly all religions tend to moderate that violence. Islam only moderates the violence to other Muslims, while it exacerbates the violence towards non-Muslims. 

 

[John Foote + 1,135]

2 hours ago, Toranaga said:

Islam only moderates the violence to other Muslims, while it exacerbates the violence towards non-Muslims. 

 

A muslim is a believer in the one true God. Christians and Jews are muslims. People of the book. They are not islamists. Christians biggest problem is believing in three gods. 

The story of the treaty with Mohammad and Medina and Mecca is telling. Somebody went back on his word. But he dismissed this as not relevant because it doesn't matter if dealing with a non-believer. When Arafat was chastised for doing his deal he referenced this haddith story. 

There is a famous line that to murder one is to murder all humanity. Like all, they cherry pick the verses to justify actions, as do we when we broadly condemn. 

One of my favorite people I worked with in Saudi, even the thought of killing a cat horrified him. He was trained by Jesuits and the University of San Francisco, and he felt those Jesuits were better muslims than many followers of Islam. It's not so simple.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

4 hours ago, Toranaga said:

If Muslims had settled America in the 1600s, this is what the Koran 9:29 told (and still tells) them to do:  
 

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

https://abuaminaelias.com/on-interpretation-of-verse-929-and-the-battle-of-tabuk/

I am sorry, but it really is not so simple that islam = evil and christianity = good. 

To furhter illustrate my point - try to read about the gay imam that founded an inclusive mosque in Paris https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/gay-imam-islam-paris-france-mosque/

-------------------

If we want a more peacefull world we need to see the entire picture. This includes looking at how the problems in the ME was created and more holistic approach to solving them. This is unlikely to happen. 

[Toranaga + 49]

18 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

https://abuaminaelias.com/on-interpretation-of-verse-929-and-the-battle-of-tabuk/

I am sorry, but it really is not so simple that islam = evil and christianity = good. 

To furhter illustrate my point - try to read about the gay imam that founded an inclusive mosque in Paris https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/gay-imam-islam-paris-france-mosque/

-------------------

If we want a more peacefull world we need to see the entire picture. This includes looking at how the problems in the ME was created and more holistic approach to solving them. This is unlikely to happen. 

You are talking down to me, and yet your post shows imprecision of thought. 

Your article about the gay imam founding an inclusive mosque is not relevant because homosexual Muslims are still Muslims. You have not countered the point about Muslim attitudes towards non-Muslims being based on the Koran and the life of Muhammad (and I'm told the Hadith too, but I have never read any of it). Here are articles about a Muslim man who wished Christians a happy Easter, and was murdered by another Muslim: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3509367/Muslim-shopkeeper-stabbed-death-hours-posted-happy-Easter-message.html  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/07/man-admits-murder-of-glasgow-shopkeeper-asad-shah-shawlands]

The page on the interpretation of verse 929 is simultaneously interesting and unconvincing.  The contention of the page is that the verse was composed in response to the military threat from the Byzantine Empire. So in response to a specific threat, we get a verse that is universal in scope!  In contrast, the NPR article points to 1 Samuel to demonstrate the violence in the Jewish scriptures.  But there, God instructed Saul to attack specifically the Amalekites. There is no built-in generalization that will serve as an inspiration for violence for the next thousands of years. To be sure, there was a future generation that did say "the Indians are like the Amalekites, we can wipe them out."  But that is far easier to counter than when the verse already says to to fight anybody who does not believe in Allah.  

The page on verse 929 states, "The Byzantine power, which was considered the greatest military force on earth at that time, showed an unjustifiable opposition towards Muslims."
History shows the opposition was entirely justifiable!  Islam started trying to conquer Byzantium almost immediately and it kept on trying until it finally completed the conquest in 1453! 

 

[Toranaga + 49]

2 hours ago, John Foote said:

A muslim is a believer in the one true God. Christians and Jews are muslims. People of the book. They are not islamists. Christians biggest problem is believing in three gods. 

The story of the treaty with Mohammad and Medina and Mecca is telling. Somebody went back on his word. But he dismissed this as not relevant because it doesn't matter if dealing with a non-believer. When Arafat was chastised for doing his deal he referenced this haddith story. 

There is a famous line that to murder one is to murder all humanity. Like all, they cherry pick the verses to justify actions, as do we when we broadly condemn. 

One of my favorite people I worked with in Saudi, even the thought of killing a cat horrified him. He was trained by Jesuits and the University of San Francisco, and he felt those Jesuits were better muslims than many followers of Islam. It's not so simple.

Points are good. When you write "It's not so simple" the problem is that there are many people out there who are simpletons, maybe most people. And of those simpleton's some % are prone to violence.  Islam gives such people many excuses to do violence on non-Muslims. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

13 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I agree that what is defined as "christian cultural heritage" today generally have influenced Western society in  positive way, but that is because our interpretation of Bible have changed. 

From the little I have read of the Qoran it is my impression that the issue here also is interpretation - i.e. as @John Foote put it : What man does with the message of God says more about man than scripture. For example - nobody blames the bible for the sexual crimes committed by catholic priests... 

Vast difference between what a religion says, and what humans choose to do. You will note Christianity changed after the printing press throwing off the yoke of the priesthood allowing the common man to read for themselves...

Vast difference between what institutions like the Catholic priesthood or Muslim imam schools and what the religious texts say.  The Institution in question has very little to do with the religion and a LOT to do with POWER just as the priests of all religions throughout history. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

10 hours ago, Toranaga said:

You are talking down to me,

This was not my intention. Please accept my apologies. 

10 hours ago, Toranaga said:

your post shows imprecision of thought. 

Unfortunately I am a little busy, so I don't have time for the well thought out answer that your post deserve. Pls read my posts in this light. 

10 hours ago, Toranaga said:

Your article about the gay imam founding an inclusive mosque is not relevant because homosexual Muslims are still Muslims.

My point with this article was to show how different people interpret scripture differently - i.e. violence or peace says more about people than scripture. 

10 hours ago, Toranaga said:

The page on the interpretation of verse 929 is simultaneously interesting and unconvincing

It is not my intention to either defend islam or attack christianity. 

I am not a scholar of either the Quran or the Bible; I have a few muslim friends and quite a few southern baptist friends. what I have learned frrom them (and going to bible school a little when I lived in Georgia) is what I base my comments on.

I do business in Nigeria with both christians and muslims. There, I have found the muslims to be more peaceful (and much less tribal) than their christian counterparts. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[Kit Moore + 50]

On 7/11/2019 at 8:14 PM, NickW said:

The Pope advised that their place in heaven would be assured if they went and fought the infidel (sound familiar?) . Virtually everyone believed in God, Heaven and Hell, fearing the latter in the extreme.

Do I remember also, that priests traveled with them to daily exonerate them from crimes committed on the Crusades.  Especially for the Crusades featuring King Richard.  He's have to have an important chap to exonerate him.

I also seem to remember reading that in daily life, the peasants would work on the church lands for a disposition, which allowed them to be exonerated from a sin or allow them to commit one.

Apologies a bit off topic but I do find medieval life fascinating.

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, Kit Moore said:

Do I remember also, that priests traveled with them to daily exonerate them from crimes committed on the Crusades.  Especially for the Crusades featuring King Richard.  He's have to have an important chap to exonerate him.

I also seem to remember reading that in daily life, the peasants would work on the church lands for a disposition, which allowed them to be exonerated from a sin or allow them to commit one.

Apologies a bit off topic but I do find medieval life fascinating.

Yep the Catholic Church ran a very effective indulgence tax system. 

[Kit Moore + 50]

Indulgence!  That was the word I was trying to think of, not exonerate - thanks Nick 🙂

[shadowkin + 584]

On 7/17/2019 at 11:46 AM, John Foote said:

A muslim is a believer in the one true God. Christians and Jews are muslims. People of the book. They are not islamists. Christians biggest problem is believing in three gods. 

The story of the treaty with Mohammad and Medina and Mecca is telling. Somebody went back on his word. But he dismissed this as not relevant because it doesn't matter if dealing with a non-believer. When Arafat was chastised for doing his deal he referenced this haddith story. 

There is a famous line that to murder one is to murder all humanity. Like all, they cherry pick the verses to justify actions, as do we when we broadly condemn. 

One of my favorite people I worked with in Saudi, even the thought of killing a cat horrified him. He was trained by Jesuits and the University of San Francisco, and he felt those Jesuits were better muslims than many followers of Islam. It's not so simple.

Judaism/Christianity both predate Islam. Neither are Muslims. That claim is just silly.

Islam is a bad copy/paste of Judaism because Mohammed was an illiterate goat herder from Arabia. Thus, Islam was illegitimate from the start. Jews rightly rejected and mocked him as a prophet of God so he waged war on them.

That famous line about murdering one is to murder humanity is from Judaism.

Your anecdotal Saudi friend must be weighed against the blood soaked history of Islam. The eternal war between Islam and the rest of the world has been more or less dormant for the past century but has come back with a vengeance recently and will likely turn hotter in future.

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 7/19/2019 at 1:03 PM, shadowkin said:

because Mohammed was an illiterate goat herder from Arabia.

Slurring is silly. To characterize as goat herder is wrong. And it's likely his illiteracy is myth he put forward. He married well and I suspect his first wife taught him.

By any account he was an exceptional merchant and warrior. A muslim by definition believes in the one true God. If you believe in the Judeo/Christian God, there is only one God, so the Islamic God has to be same one. Perversion by people, no doubt. 

There are far more followers of Islam in Indonesia, and even India, than the Arab countries. Spend some time in Arabia. Their ability to unite amongst themselves is rather poor. There are pockets of radicalized Islam that need to be treated like a cancer. 

 

[shadowkin + 584]

On 7/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, John Foote said:

Slurring is silly. To characterize as goat herder is wrong. And it's likely his illiteracy is myth he put forward. He married well and I suspect his first wife taught him.

By any account he was an exceptional merchant and warrior.

It's not a slur but statement of fact. To be fair he seems to have been what some people might call semi-literate but imo you're either literate or not. He was a war monger no doubt. Churchill described the Koran as not so much a religious text as it is a war manual. I wouldn't characterize him as a great warrior though. I'm not really impressed by conquering other Arab tribes.

On 7/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, John Foote said:

f you believe in the Judeo/Christian God, there is only one God, so the Islamic God has to be same one.

This is an oft repeated line by Western politicians and some clergy that may sound good but given the doctrinal differences in these religions it's just an empty political slogan.

On 7/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, John Foote said:

A muslim by definition believes in the one true God.

I can't tell if you're describing a religion on Earth or the religion in Battlestar Galactica

[Adeem Salik 0]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:12 PM, James Regan said:

Trump gives himself some wiggle room by saying he thinks it was a rogue element within Iran, if that’s the case the rogue element is the IRGC as the Chief of the IRGC gave the official response. 

So is the problem Iran or the IRGC?

IRGC want regime change as do the USA so Trumps reply saying it was probably a mistake (and they regret it) sounds like BS and Trumps lack of apetite to act on threats.

 

USA sends spy to Iran and when Iran catches it, you say that is a threat from Iran. hadn't read anything that dumb in a while.

[James Regan + 1,776]

9 hours ago, Adeem Salik said:

USA sends spy to Iran and when Iran catches it, you say that is a threat from Iran. hadn't read anything that dumb in a while.

@Adeem Salik With total respect our mother tongues are not the same and this can cause confusion from both my end and yours, no need for us to get into name calling

If you read and understand my comment you will see I am leaning towards your obvious side, it’s this kind of rhetoric that will set off an incident. Chill🙏🏻

Edited July 22, 2019 by James Regan

[Kit Moore + 50]

On 7/20/2019 at 11:34 PM, John Foote said:

A muslim by definition believes in the one true God. If you believe in the Judeo/Christian God, there is only one God, so the Islamic God has to be same one. Perversion by people, no doubt.

Thank you for this comment, it did make me stop and think.  Theology and doctrine - it just made me stop and think, thank you.

I'm a hedge-pagan (the most convenient label for my beliefs) so I'm baffled why anyone wants to go killing someone else.  It does strike me that as lovely as Muslims are (I know some lovely people), you don't seem to get the equivalent Christian Crusaders riding in conquest as the Muslim Taliman seems bent on bringing all the world to the rule of Islam.

Now I'll sit back and learn some more 🙂

[SERWIN + 749]

On 6/20/2019 at 10:28 AM, James Regan said:

Could we at least get the FTC to tell him to stop tweeting about oil? He is manipulating the oil market here.....No different than Musk's doings. On that note, why wouldn't they consider him tweeting that they better get their cars now because the price is going up, up, and away as another form of manipulating the stock prices?

Edited July 22, 2019 by SERWIN
Wasn't finished

[Toranaga + 49]

On 7/22/2019 at 11:46 AM, Kit Moore said:

Thank you for this comment, it did make me stop and think.  Theology and doctrine - it just made me stop and think, thank you.

I'm a hedge-pagan (the most convenient label for my beliefs) so I'm baffled why anyone wants to go killing someone else.  It does strike me that as lovely as Muslims are (I know some lovely people), you don't seem to get the equivalent Christian Crusaders riding in conquest as the Muslim Taliman seems bent on bringing all the world to the rule of Islam.

Now I'll sit back and learn some more 🙂

Apparently, it doesn't matter what God it is, it's what you call it, him, her:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. [https://quran.com/9]

 

•  

[Toranaga + 49]

On 7/20/2019 at 6:34 PM, John Foote said:

Slurring is silly. To characterize as goat herder is wrong. And it's likely his illiteracy is myth he put forward. He married well and I suspect his first wife taught him.

By any account he was an exceptional merchant and warrior. A muslim by definition believes in the one true God. If you believe in the Judeo/Christian God, there is only one God, so the Islamic God has to be same one. Perversion by people, no doubt. 

There are far more followers of Islam in Indonesia, and even India, than the Arab countries. Spend some time in Arabia. Their ability to unite amongst themselves is rather poor. There are pockets of radicalized Islam that need to be treated like a cancer. 

 

Apparently, the key is what you call God: 

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. [https://quran.com/9]

As the people on London Bridge know quite graphically, as the people at the Sri Lankan churches know quite explosively, as we all should know, they will go to great lengths to kill those who do not specifically believe in Allah.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 7/21/2019 at 6:34 AM, John Foote said:

Slurring is silly.

Minnesota Rep. in 2018: