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7 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Are you familiar with the Wild Weasels?  The US has been countering Anti-air missiles since the Vietnam War.  It's a certainty that weapons & tactics have been developed to counter Russia's latest SAMs. 

I did two years in OTC and 3 years in the  RA Medical Corps. I met a lot of people - Infantry, Special Forces, Engineers, air force and naval personnel etc. I never met anyone who was gung-ho about the idea of going into combat in a mountainous region, similar in size to western Europe. To be honest you sound like the classic Call of Duty Veteran. 

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7 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

You have a gift for putting words in other people's mouths.  I do not appreciate the insinuation. 

@Tom Kirkman, are there any forum rules against intentionally misinterpreting other people's statements in an attempt to slander them? 

I asked you a question you pillock - I wasn't putting words in your mouth. 

Sir sir - he said this, what you going to do about it -boo hoo - i want my mummy🤣

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3 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Iraq could not succeed in getting air superiority.  The high ground is everything and there's no higher ground than space. We've never even loosened the gloves in Afghanistan. My nephew was stationed there and the rules of engagement he was under were obscene. Soldiers literally never allowed to fire until fired upon, watching the enemy taking their time setting up mortar emplacements and praying like hell the first rounds didn't just kill them before they got to fight back. This of course was under the Obama administration, no friends to soldiers anywhere. 

In terms of the Iran - Iraq War. 

Iraq had:

a much bigger Army

5-6x the number of operational tanks

4x AFV

More fighters and F-bombers

More artillery

Was given $1 billion a month by KSA and similar sums by other Gulf states

Extensive Satellite Intel by USA plus supplied Artillery systems

Mirage 1 and Aerospatiale Helicopters by France

Extensive supply of tanks, aircraft  and other material by Russia

Supply of Material from China

-------------------

Iran got a bit of support from Libya, Syria and North Korea.

 

What was the result - a draw. 

Many Iranians hate their regime, this is true but they hate foreign invaders 1000x more. 

 

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19 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

You underestimate how overwhelmingly effective US armor and fire support have become.  The US only takes casualties when we feel like being nice. 

 

11 hours ago, NickW said:

So you now openly view the Geneva convention as an optional extra? 

I also understand that Russia and China produce some highly effective anti tank weapons which I suspect they will be happy to supply to Iran. 

 

7 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

You have a gift for putting words in other people's mouths.  I do not appreciate the insinuation. 

@Tom Kirkman, are there any forum rules against intentionally misinterpreting other people's statements in an attempt to slander them? 

Hmmm, I wouldn't view this as slander, but rather as a totally different viewpoint.

Debating online can be tricky on heated topics such as politics and religion, where there are no "right" answers, but only vastly different points of view in an exceedingly wide spectrum.

It can be pretty easy to misinterpret the comments of others when viewed through one's own perspective.

Similarly, it can be pretty easy for others to misinterpret and put a slant on one's own comment, when others have a totally different perspective.

Asking for clarification may be a better approach instead.

 

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(edited)

On 6/20/2019 at 12:34 PM, Jeff_Calgary said:

The US should have stuck to the agreement. The average age in Iran is around 22. The old guard is leaving soon by attrition and Trump is trying hard to alienate the young folks now. They would prefer to slowly get along with the west.

When has an Islamic country in recent history ever had a grassroots revolution that toppled the existing leadership,  WithOut foreign intervention? Hoping the Iranians rise up and topple the mullahs is a waste of time.  I'm not advocating a strike either.  If Trump is smart perhaps he could parlay this crapshow into a trade deal with China, who desperately need Iranian oil.

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23 minutes ago, Jakridge said:

When has an Islamic country in recent history ever had a grassroots revolution that toppled the existing leadership,  WithOut foreign intervention? Hoping the Iranians rise up and topple the mullahs is a waste of time.  I'm not advocating a strike either.  If Trump is smart perhaps he could parlay this crapshow into a trade deal with China, who desperately need Iranian oil.

Fair enough observation.

Excerpt from transcript of press briefing earlier today.  Obviously these briefings from the President are never presented in full by Mainstream Media.

President Trump Impromptu Remarks Departing White House

... Q What are the next steps for Iran? Is a possible strike off the table?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we’ll see what’s with Iran. Everybody was saying I’m a warmonger, and now they say I’m a dove. And I think I’m neither, if you want to know the truth. I’m a man with common sense, and that’s what we need in this country is common sense. But I didn’t like the idea of them knowingly shooting down an unmanned drone, and then we kill 150 people. I didn’t like that.

Q (Inaudible) move forward with sanctions against Iran?

THE PRESIDENT: I — I can’t hear.

Q Are you going to move forward with sanctions against Iran?

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah, we’re moving forward with additional sanctions on Iran. Good question. And some of them are in place. As you know, we have about as strong a sanction grouping as you can possibly have on any country. But we’re putting additional sanctions on. They’re going on slowly and, in some cases, actually pretty rapidly. But Iran — additional sanctions are being put on Iran.

Q How much progress toward a nuclear weapon are you willing to let Iran make before you (inaudible)?

THE PRESIDENT: Very little. That’s what it’s all about. You know, we have built — and, right now, if you look at the United States, very importantly, we are the number-one oil producer — oil and gas — in the world, by far. We’re way ahead of Russia. We’re way ahead of Saudi Arabia. We don’t really need the Straits anymore. We take some, but we don’t need it. The biggest beneficiary of the Straits is China. Ninety-one percent of their energy comes out of the Straits. Japan, Indonesia — many other countries need it.

So we’re doing them a very big service by keeping the Straits open. But this is not about the Straits. This is about Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. It’s very simple. Because we don’t need it, just so you understand. We don’t need it.

Q Your National Security Advisor came under some hard criticism from Tucker Carlson and others for pushing too hard on Iran. You said you’re not a warmonger, but do you have confidence in the judgment of your National Security Advisor John Bolton?

THE PRESIDENT: Yeah, I do because I have John Bolton, who I would definitely say is a hawk, and I have other people that are on the other side of the equation. And, ultimately, I make the decisions, so it doesn’t matter. But I want — for instance, I disagreed very much with John Bolton — his attitude on the Middle East and Iraq was going into Iraq. I think that was a big mistake. I think I’ve been proven right, but I’ve been against that forever.

John Bolton is doing a very good job, but he takes a — generally, a tough posture. But I have other people that don’t take that posture. But the only one that matters is me because I’ll listen to everybody. And I want people on both sides. Having people on both sides, to me, is very important.

Q At what point were you briefed about the potential casualties of an Iran airstrike? Were you briefed in the initial planning stages? At what point were you actually —

THE PRESIDENT: No, I started to hear that it was a lot. But, again, no decision was made. I said, “You come and see me.” And they came and see me. At the time, we hadn’t done anything. And I asked the question, and I said, “I want to know that answer before I make a decision.”

So we hadn’t made a decision to go forward. I said, “Everybody, we will meet. One thing I want to know, and I want to know it accurately — as accurately as possible: How many people will die?”

Just so you know, I come from New York City. In New York City, we have a lot of Iranians, and they’re great people. I have friends that are Iranian — many friends. Living in New York City, you meet many Iranians. They’re very smart. They’re very ambitious. They have tremendous — they’re high-quality people. But I have many friends that are Iranian. I don’t want to kill 150 Iranians. I understand it. I don’t want to kill 150 of anything or anybody, unless it’s absolutely necessary. And most people very much agree with what I — what I’m doing.

Now, if the leadership of Iran behaves badly, then it’s going to be a very, very bad day for them. But hopefully, they’re smart. And hopefully, they really care for their people and not themselves. And hopefully, we can get Iran back onto an economic track that’s fantastic, where they’re a really wealthy nation, which would be a wonderful thing.

All those things, I want to do. But if they’re going to be foolish, that’s never going to happen.

...

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24 minutes ago, Jakridge said:

When has an Islamic country in recent history ever had a grassroots revolution that toppled the existing leadership,  WithOut foreign intervention? Hoping the Iranians rise up and topple the mullahs is a waste of time.  I'm not advocating a strike either.  If Trump is smart perhaps he could parlay this crapshow into a trade deal with China, who desperately need Iranian oil.

2011 : grassroots revolutions toppled the existing leadership in Tunisia and Egypt

2019 : grassroots revolutions toppled the existing leaders in Algeria and Soudan

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An aside here.  For the benefit of those who primarily get their news from Mainstream Media, please allow me to present a totally different viewpoint, for your consideration.

Copied & pasted below is a comment from an anonymous poster on a different forum.  Some things I disagree with, but mostly I see eye to eye with this anon's perspective.  Your mileage will probably vary considerably, but hopefully it may jolt you a bit to put a bit less faith in the official narratives presented on Mainstream Media.

=============================

Did you know that the people of Iran are doing EXACTLY what we did in our last election? They are fighting their corrupt government the exact same way we are. https://twitter.com/rahmani7hasan/status/1138914915396280325?s=21

 

Yesterday, after the drone was shot down, Trump met with congressional leaders and TOLD them we would be doing a limited strike. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-meets-with-top-members-of-congress-on-iran-live-updates/

 

There is literally footage of them celebrating and dancing because if we were were to bomb Iran it would lead to war. https://twitter.com/kevinliptakcnn/status/1141807112802246656?s=21

 

Not long after their little celebration, some of the members met with Brennan to tell what was discussed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-toktI_QcCY

 

Why is Brennan important? Because he was the director of the CIA during the Obama administration, and yet he is still briefing Congress Democrat’s on Iran?? https://wtop.com/government/2019/05/ap-sources-former-cia-chief-brennan-to-brief-dems-on-iran/

 

Right after this occurred, Diane Feinstein took a little trip of her own. https://www.theblaze.com/news/why-did-dianne-feinstein-meet-secretly-with-iran-as-tensions-with-u-s-peaked

 

What you have not heard from ANY MSM is the fact that Iran just raided a CIA black site in their country, arresting several. https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201906171075913700-arrests-cia-run-busted-in-iran/

 

https://m.timesofindia.com/world/middle-east/iran-says-cia-spy-network-dismantled-as-regional-tensions-ratchet-up/articleshow/69845459.cms

 

Trump told the swamp EXACTLY what they needed to hear and they leaked it. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1141904368356220929?s=21

Add pic

 

Trump never had any intention of bombing them. But it sure exposed a few members of the swamp.

 

The financial coffers that the swamp has used has been cut off for a little while now. They are going broke. Their human trafficking (big money) and money laundering ways are being choked out.

Trump’s very first executive order saw to that. Blocking the Property of Persons Involved in Serious Human Rights Abuse or Corruption

 

Look at the investigations into the big banks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-danske-bank-moneylaundering/danske-bank-whistleblower-says-european-bank-handled-150-billion-of-payments-idUSKCN1NO0ZR

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/1MDB-probe-shifts-focus-to-extent-of-Goldman-s-role

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-10/salvini-calls-elimination-italys-central-bank-prison-time-fraudsters

 

Look at the NXIVM trial that was just completed. https://thedcpatriot.com/bombshell-nxivm-sex-cult-witness-names-major-stars-politicians-in-polygraph/

 

https://www.dcclothesline.com/2019/06/19/forgotten-2007-article-exposed-nxivm-connection-to-clintons/

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/06/19/keith-raniere-leader-of-nxivm-convicted-of-racketeering-and-sex-trafficking-charges/#4474be2773e3

 

They thought by creating a war, they could start building up their funds again. Striking Iran would have done exactly that.

 

However, Did you know that the limited strike on Iran was leaked days before the drone was shot down? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-18/jerusalem-post-us-bombing-iran-will-be-massive-will-be-limited-specific-target

 

https://www.jpost.com/printarticle.aspx?id=592832

 

From who??? Israel. How many members of our Senate and House have duel citizenship with Iran? https://prepareforchange.net/2018/06/22/89-of-our-senators-and-congress-hold-dual-citizenship-citizenship-with-israel/

Add pic

 

Trump was serious when he said he wants peace for Iran. Not their government, but the people.

 

#DRAINTHESWAMP

#MAGA

#MIGA

#LOCKTHEMUP

#PATRIOTSAWAKENED

https://twitter.com/foxymama1776/status/1142155405897949185?s=21

 

Screenshot_20190623-073748_Brave.jpg

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Here's another alternative viewpoint to Mainstream Media, for your consideration.

Again, while there are some points presented which I do not agree with, generally I tend to see eye to eye with this person's viewpoints.  And again, your mileage may vary considerably.

And time for me to dust off and trot out my trusty old motto / tag line from my old days as a moderator on the now defunct Oilpro forum:

Just my opinion; as always, you are free to disagree.

 

https://www.osidi.net/single-post/2019/06/22/Rumors-of-War-Issue-034

We, the American public, are having a sort of Déjà vu. We are being prepared, subliminally, for a war with Iran, which the globalists in our government have portrayed as inevitable for more than a decade now. It is the same routine: constant negative news coverage of a country, a flimsy pretext, and then a US invasion. Something is different this time, however. The American public has developed a healthy disdain for the mainstream press, and an even healthier disgust with the corrupt bureaucrats peopling the smoky corridors of K-Street and Wall Street. They are selling another war, and America isn’t buying it.


When the news broke last week that a Japanese oil tanker exploded in the Gulf of Oman on June 13, the usual suspects were quick to blame Iran. They were just as quick to imply that immediate use of force was the only recourse. Of course, war is a serious business. It also happens to be big business for many politicians, intelligence agencies, and corporate financiers. If you are an American, and you truly support our troops, it is your constitutional duty to consider war an absolute last resort. The Mockingbird Media, conversely, is so used to beating the war-drums that they were left dumbfounded when Trump downplayed the attack (Exclusive: President Trump Calls Alleged Iranian Attack on Oil Tankers 'Very Minor' – Time Magazine, June 18, 2019.)


President Trump (unlike both of his predecessors) has done an excellent job of avoiding war. This writer considers this his greatest achievement to date. The achievement is even more amazing considering how conflicts in Syria, North Korean, Iran, and Venezuela were all poised to escalate when Trump took office. More amazing still is that a good portion of the U.S. Government controlled by the Deep-State has been waging a covert civil war aimed at removing Trump and his ‘Alliance’ of patriots from power since before he even took office. And yet the peace remains. For those of us who are informed, responsible, patriotic Americans, here is a short list of the questions compiled for OSI:DI that one might consider asking in light of the current situation:

 

  • Why have the most recent attacks in the gulf region targeted oil tankers and not military vessels?

  • Why was the Japanese tanker Kokura Courageous attacked while Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was meeting with the Iranian regime? (Shinzo Abe’s mission to Iran ends in flames – Washington Post, June 14, 2019)

  • Was the June 14 piece in the Washington Post another “Company” op-ed/communique? [We strongly recommend reading the previous link in detail – OSI:DI]

  • Shinzo Abe was meeting the Iranian regime at the behest of President Trump and the Gulf Monarchies who were beginning to make diplomatic overtures to Iran. Was the attack a message from the Deep-State to all world leaders saying “if you attempt to stop our push for war in Iran, your oil supplies might meet a similar fate”?

  • Cui Bono? Who benefits from a regional war which would drag down Iran? Saudi Arabia? Not likely. The United States? Certainly not the Trump Administration. Israel? Well, Bibi Netanyahu is always calling for war with Iran, so why has his cabinet been instructed to keep their mouths shut this time? (Oman Attack: Why Israel Remains Mum as Accusations Against Iran Abound – Haaretz, June 16, 2019)
    100,000 troops dying on the road to Tehran by now• Are we seeing the globalists lose their hold on the peasantry? If this was 2003, they might have had 

  • Do we remember the Maine? How about the Gulf of Tonkin? What about “Weapons of Mass Destruction”? How many people actually thought that WMD was anything other than a buzz-phrase for the war-propaganda psychological operation run out of Langley and Tel Aviv?

  • How will the controlled press spin this story? One of the advantages of controlling the media is that you can make it a victory regardless of the outcome. If Trump retaliates against Iran, he is “reckless” and a “war-monger.” If he does nothing he is “weak” and “ineffective.” Therefore, the administrations only course of action is to blame Iran, posture, and then proceed as normal. But make no mistake; more attempts will be made to push Trump into war.

  • How is John Kerry doing these days? Do we all remember his violations of the Logan Act, negotiating with Iran on behalf of the American shadow government that was waiting in the wings for Trump’s removal?

  • What do we make of the U.K. and U.S. deployment of forces to the region? The fog-of-war is real. You are not going to know what their missions are, and if you did, the missions would be failures before they began. These U.S. and U.K. forces: are they hunting Iranian fast-boats? CIA-trained militias? Israeli drones?

 

"Peace is not absence of conflict, it is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means."


"People do not make wars; governments do."


"We must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women… A people free to choose will always choose peace"
-President Ronald Reagan


Rumors of war could easily be dispelled if we had a truthful, investigative media, but it is painfully obvious that we do not. Compounding this problem is the emergent, pervasive censorship campaign waged by our largest tech companies. Any individual who succeeds in gaining traction with an anti-official narrative is immediately banned, shadow-banned, de-monetized, de-platformed, or blacklisted. You want to go ahead and complain about it? Press your luck and you will get banned too! Narrative control is critical to both sides, and the Deep-State’s monopoly on the censorship business gives them a pronounced advantage on this front. But it now seems that this “front” in the Second American Civil War has broken into full view of the public:

ad377d_22682ae962324ee193c32413785fd8b2~

[Drudge Report headline from early June, 2019]


Not a moment too soon! After years of turning a blind eye to big-tech’s flagrant abuse of censorship power, government subsidies, and individual privacy, it looks like the US Government is finally positioned to put real pressure on these rogue, quasi-intelligence agencies (Antitrust troubles snowball for tech giants as lawmakers join in – The New York Times, June 4, 2019.) Of course, readers of this newsletter could see this story coming well over a year in advance:

...

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9 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

I'm not convinced about More currency resulting in Less inflation. In fact I think you'll find exactly the opposite in every economics textbook. 

Ignoring things to buy WITH currency, consider currency itself the commodity. High supply of currency will equate to low demand and vice versa. We're printing currency like crazy and need that massive demand to sop some of it up, hence supporting its value. Otherwise, massive inflation. 

Inflation occurs when currency supply outstrips real production of goods and services.  The point of the petrodollar is to create real goods and services for those dollars to chase. 

Inflation is necessary to pay national debts.  The debt is some fixed amount.  The larger your base of currency, the lower percentage of inflation necessary to pay the debt.  QED. 

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What have the Ukrainians go to do with the subject title, we were discussing the stand off between Iran and its Nemesis the US.

As for Ukraine, their a mess and it doesn't help that the US and EU support the chaos there. If I had a neighbor like them I would move, but that's not possible in this case. Couple of overlooked facts about Ukraine, a large proportion of those people living in Eastern Ukraine are Russian orientated. As far back as 2000 the Ukrainians have been pilfering gas from the transport routes to Europe, because Russia could no longer afford to support their socialist programs and elitist greed. this went on for years until Russia stopped transporting gas for which it was vilified by the west for weaponizing energy. Anyway, when I think of the meddling the US gets up to in places like Venezuela the Russian pale in comparison. of course this meddling is all done in the name of democracy, and human rights. Tell that to the Iraqis, the Syrians, the Libyans, the Iranians, the North Koreans, the Vietnamese etc but lets call it what it is, the US has a belief that's what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine.

One day there will be reckoning, there always is. If history doesn't tell us anything, it does confirm this.

 

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On 6/22/2019 at 1:13 AM, Guillaume Albasini said:

Obviously some are unable to draw lessons from past experiences.

 

Overwhelming military power is one thing. Winning a war is another.

You can be victorious on the battlefield, you will not be victorious in the war, unless you have a viable political solution, one which will be supported by the local people.

When you topple a bad regime, you sometimes risk replacing it with a worse one.

It takes only a few days for the US to invade a country, but it takes many years to get out.

That was one of the mistakes US made in the past, "nation re-building". When a "bad regime" is put out of power and removed, the US should not leave its boots on the ground for too long (time frame subject to needs and requirements ), but need to set up an operational gov and structure with the "new" gov. and get out, give them the resources and use a carrot and stick policy, we will help you from a distance , you do your own rebuilding and move on.

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7 minutes ago, ceo_energemsier said:

That was one of the mistakes US made in the past, "nation re-building". When a "bad regime" is put out of power and removed, the US should not leave its boots on the ground for too long (time frame subject to needs and requirements ), but need to set up an operational gov and structure with the "new" gov. and get out, give them the resources and use a carrot and stick policy, we will help you from a distance , you do your own rebuilding and move on.

Easier said than done. Just like Yugoslavia demonstrated, an apparently Civil society can get tremendously uncivilized in very short order, once the regime changes. To quote General Powell quoting Pottery Barn, "You break it, you buy it" 

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12 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Inflation occurs when currency supply outstrips real production of goods and services.  The point of the petrodollar is to create real goods and services for those dollars to chase. 

Inflation is necessary to pay national debts.  The debt is some fixed amount.  The larger your base of currency, the lower percentage of inflation necessary to pay the debt.  QED. 

I completely agree with your first paragraph above. 

The second one? Not so much. Interesting to bring Central Bank into it, but there's not a linear relationship. What most Americans don't understand is How the Central Bank places currency into circulation. Understandable, since I suspect there are Federal Reserve governors who don't really understand. ;)

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Excerpt below relating to Iran.  Full video and full transcript in the link:

Sunday Talks: President Trump on Meet The Press – Full Unedited Interview and Broadcast Transcript

President Trump sat down last Friday for a lengthy one-on-one interview with Chuck Todd on Meet The Press.  In credit to NBC they provide the full unedited interview. WATCH:

.

[Transcript AS BROADCAST] CHUCK TODD: Let me start right in. What happened last night?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, you had a situation that was very bad because the night before, they shot down an unmanned drone. And the unmanned is a very big factor. The fact that there was not a person on it, a U.S. person on it, or anybody. And that had an impact on me. I said, “Well, you know, we got a little problem.” And I think they did that on purpose because they understand that they will be hit very hard if that were a plane with a person in it. And I think they knew that there was nobody there. So we had a very, you know, modest but pretty, pretty heavy attack schedule.

trump-meet-the-press-2.jpg?w=584

CHUCK TODD: And this is a pre-plan that you had, something that if they did something, you had something —

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, we had it —

CHUCK TODD: — these were sort of ready-made plans —

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Sure, we have many of them —

CHUCK TODD: — to use if necessary, right?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Oh, I have so many targets you wouldn’t believe.

CHUCK TODD: Right.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We have targets all over.

CHUCK TODD: So did you green light something? Or had you said —

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Nothing’s —

CHUCK TODD: “If we do it, I’ll do this.” What was, what was the order you gave?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Nothing is green lighted until the very end because —

CHUCK TODD: Ok.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: — things change, right?

CHUCK TODD: So you never gave a final order?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, no, no, no. But we had something ready to go, subject to my approval. And they came in. And they came in about a half an hour before, they said, “So we’re about ready to go.” I said, “I want a better definition –”

CHUCK TODD: Planes in the air? Were planes in the air?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, no. “We’re about ready to go.” No, but they would have been pretty soon. And things would have happened to a point where you wouldn’t turn back or couldn’t turn back. So they came and they said, “Sir, we’re ready to go. We’d like a decision.” I said, “I want to know something before you go. How many people will be killed, in this case Iranians?” I said, “How many people are going to be killed?” “Sir, I’d like get back to you on that,” great people these generals. They said, came back, said, “Sir, approximately 150.” And I thought about it for a second and I said, “You know what? They shot down an unmanned drone, plane, whatever you want to call it. And here we are sitting with 150 dead people that would have taken place probably within a half an hour after I said go ahead.” And I didn’t like it. I didn’t think it was, I didn’t think it was proportionate. Now that doesn’t mean —

CHUCK TODD: You think they were trying to provoke you?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, I don’t think so. And I think it was very important that they, to them, don’t forget, their economy —

CHUCK TODD: They don’t — they, they –you don’t think they intended to get you to respond militarily?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, their economy is shattered. Shattered.

CHUCK TODD: So what’s the message you think they’re sending?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Their inflation is through the roof. They’ve never had, the highest in the world right now. Worse than any place. They’re, they’re living not well.

CHUCK TODD: Do you want to do a separate deal with Iran? Or do you want to get everybody involved in the same deal? Get the Russians, get the Chinese?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don’t care which, what kind of a deal. It can be separate or it could be total.

CHUCK TODD: But it’s one-on-one talks, you and the Ayatollah?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: All it is — all it is —

CHUCK TODD: Is it one-on-one talks, you and the Ayatollah, or you and the President?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It doesn’t matter to me. Here’s what I want, anything that gets you to the result. They cannot have a nuclear weapon. It’s not about the straits. You know, a lot of people covered it incorrectly. They’re never mentioned. They cannot have a nuclear weapon. They’d use it. And they’re not going to have a nuclear weapon.

CHUCK TODD: Did you send a message —

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And it’s not about the oil.

CHUCK TODD: — last night? You know, Reuters is reporting that you sent a message to the Iranians saying, “I don’t want war. I want to talk.”

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Wrong. It’s wrong. I did not send that message. I did not send that message. I don’t know who —

CHUCK TODD: Ok.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don’t know who would have said that.

CHUCK TODD: Send a message right now to the Ayatollah.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I mean it’s fake news.

CHUCK TODD: Then send a message right now to the Ayatollah.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Wouldn’t be much different than that message.

CHUCK TODD: Which is?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I’m not looking for war and if there is, it’ll be obliteration like you’ve never seen before. But I’m not looking to do that. But you can’t have a nuclear weapon. You want to talk? Good. Otherwise you can have a bad economy for the next —

CHUCK TODD: No pre-conditions?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: — three years. Not as far as I’m concerned. No pre-conditions.

CHUCK TODD: And you’ll talk anywhere?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Here it is. Look, you can’t have nuclear weapons. And if you want to talk about it, good. Otherwise you can live in a shattered economy for a long time to come.

CHUCK TODD: If you, are you, do you feel like you were being pushed into military action against Iran by any of your advisors?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have two groups of people. I have doves and I have hawks.

CHUCK TODD: Yeah, you have some serious hawks.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have some hawks. Yeah, John Bolton is absolutely a hawk. If it was up to him he’d take on the whole world at one time, okay? But that doesn’t matter because I want both sides. You know, some people said, “Why did you put –” You know, I was against going into Iraq for years and years. And before it ever happened I was against going into Iraq. And some people said, “Oh I don’t know.” I was totally against and I was a private citizen. It never made sense to me. I was against going into the Middle East. Chuck, we’ve spent $7 trillion in the Middle East right now.

CHUCK TODD: What would a candidate Trump have said about a president who, on his watch, had Iran shooting down a drone, a Venezuelan dictator thumbing his nose at you, Obamacare still on the books and no results yet on the border? The border getting tough —

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, let’s, let’s take a look. Let’s take a look —

CHUCK TODD: I just say — what would candidate Trump have said about that?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Okay, let’s take a look. The border’s doing great. Mexico’s been fantastic. They’ve been trying to get a deal with Mexico for 45 years, right? So for 45 years, they couldn’t get a deal. I got one in one day. I said, “We’re going to put tariffs on and we’re going to either have a deal or not. We agreed in one day.” Mexico just moved 6,000 people to their southern border. 6,000 troops to their southern border. The border’s working out well. And the wall is being built. I mean, a lot of people don’t like to talk about it. We’re building the wall. We will have 400 miles of wall built by the end of next year and that’s hard because the Democrats don’t want to approve it. We just beat them in a big lawsuit, as you know, in Washington, in D.C. We just beat them in a very big lawsuit.

...

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 9:14 PM, Jan van Eck said:

No chance.  

Americans no longer do "territory."  The doctrine is to hammer the opponent [the "enemy"] into oblivion. Air power (and naval power including naval air power) is used for that.  Iranians cannot even hide deep inside mountains, in tunnels.  The US has these bunker-buster conventional bombs,and small battlefield nuclear weapons that would pulverize those installations.  There is no place to hide, no place to run.  If your opponent is the USA, you have two choices:  surrender, or die.

Look at the veterans, plenty still get messed up even against "inferior" powers. Sure the US would win but to say they wouldn't take causalities is a joke.

Heck, even trump just said there would be 150 dead.  If the gov't says 150 publicly it's probably closer to 1000... hard to maintain extreme arrogance in the military -and get recruits- if you report dead soldiers.

Even if the enemy didn't fire a single shot some would die (friendly fire, accidents, drunk soldiers fighting each other).  Then you get all the people who come home with PTSD and kill themselves.

War is bad.

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On 6/21/2019 at 8:01 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

President Trump Cancels Disproportionate Counter-Attack on Iran

Lots of differing opinion on the decision by POTUS to cancel a retaliatory strike against Iran.  Some praise and some criticize.   Here’s President Trump’s reason for cancelling the strike against Iran:

trump-tweet-economics-iran-strike-cancelled.jpg

As it relates to the Trump doctrine, Conservative Tree House would note any current ally of the U.S; and/or any entity engaged with significant economic interests attached to the U.S; including any EU entity who might have previously been skirting the sanctions against Iran (think Turkey); would now be very cautious about appearing on President Trump and Secretary Mnuchin’s proverbial radar.

 

You praise him no matter what he does.

He spouts off about something, you say it's great, he fails to follow though and you say that is great too.

 

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10 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:
On 6/22/2019 at 3:53 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

 

Debating online can be tricky on heated topics such as politics and religion, where there are no "right" answers, but only vastly different points of view in an exceedingly wide spectrum.

 

 

Around here even on topic such as science, where there are right answers.

Cheers 🍺

 

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On 6/22/2019 at 8:10 AM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

The US has been far more deadly than people imagine.

What a source of pride... :faceplam:

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2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

You praise him no matter what he does.

He spouts off about something, you say it's great, he fails to follow though and you say that is great too.

Maimstream Media (typo intentional) attacks Trump no matter what he says or does.

MSM has zero respect for the office of the President of the United States, unless there is a compliant puppet (such as Obama) holding the office.

If you will notice, what I have done recently in several threads is to provide links to full, unedited transcripts of what Trump has said to the press, because the MSM simply refuses to do so.

 

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On 6/22/2019 at 8:32 AM, James Regan said:

 

War is not pretty and seems ironic that it has rules, given that the intention is to kill your opponent and destroy a country.

Lets go back to castrating all the men and raping all the women! LOL

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1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

You praise him no matter what he does.

He spouts off about something, you say it's great, he fails to follow though and you say that is great too.

 

your criticism is misplaced. 

Mr. Trump recognizes that "war" is diplomacy that is being carried on by other means, yet still to achieve the same objective.  Trump is not out to slaughter the Iranian population.  He is not out even to wreck the Iranian military.  He seeks to convince the current Iranian leadership to step down, or in the alternative to have the young Iranians overthrow the old - the ancien regime.  Trump understands the concept of proportional response: right now, the Iranians knocked out one unmanned drone, basically a piece of military hardware.  Is a proportional response to blast a launch bivouac into obliteration?  It would be if there was no personnel there.  But his intelligence reports that there are some 150 Iranian soldiers at that site, who would get killed.  Trump, quite correctly, finds that a disproportionate response, so does not authorize a strike.  He simply bides his time.  That is a lot more convincing response than say Bill Clinton who attempts to go bomb the Hindu Kush mountains in some vague attempt to nail Osama bin Laden - an effort that was pathetic and doomed to failure. 

SO far, whether you like the guy or not, whether you think he is a moron and a buffoon or not, he is proving to be the superior leader.  He knows how to keep his cool.  Not bombing a populated spot is NOT "failure to follow through."  It is careful weighing of the potential gains against the potential losses.   Do I personally like Trump?  No.  But I shall give him full marks were they are deserved. Don't let your emotions color your judgment. 

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6 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

 But I shall give him full marks were they are deserved. Don't let your emotions color your judgment. 

I actually liked this decision. I'm chill

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