Tom Kirkman

The Inconvenient Truth Of Electric Cars

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And the push to force everyone into EV ownership will undoubtedly place a further burden on the charging station infrastructure (which does not seem to be keeping pace with the expected landslide of EV's on the road), which will result in further congestion and waiting times for an available slot before you even begin charging.

No. 90% of charging is done at home. And charging infrastructure is still expanding rapidly. And a little thought and planning put into a trip can easily avoid the issues the author of the article encountered.

And if you are that worried about it, you can spend an extra $5k and get a Tesla.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

90% of the charging is done at home, assuming that charge gets you where you want to go. If you break routine and need a charge away from home, you need to plan the trip around the immature charging infrastructure. The more EV's on the road will PROBABLY stress the charging facilities away from home.

This all becomes a pain in the butt that could have been avoided by hanging onto the old, paid for, KIA.

Many people will not have the financial resources to pop for the 'Tesla Option'.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're one of the five or six (non-truck driving) people who  have to make same-day round trip commutes to and from Vegas on regular basis, then the Chevy Volt is not for you. However, if you're one of the tens of millions who commutes less than 100 miles a day, any electric car will do the job. 

This story is ridiculous.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

90% of the charging is done at home, assuming that charge gets you where you want to go. If you break routine and need a charge away from home, you need to plan the trip around the immature charging infrastructure. The more EV's on the road will PROBABLY stress the charging facilities away from home.

This all becomes a pain in the butt that could have been avoided by hanging onto the old, paid for, KIA.

Many people will not have the financial resources to pop for the 'Tesla Option'.

Only for road trips will planning really be needed. But yes, some planning is needed. Especially on holiday travel.

But more chargers are put in place every day.

And used Teslas will eventually be cheap as well.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 6/24/2019 at 6:16 AM, Jan van Eck said:

Speaking directly to "grocery clerks" and the advent of self-checkout and self-checkout machines at big-box stores, the reason so much very expensive automation is installed instead of simply hiring more clerks at modest pay is perfectly straightforward.  The store managers cannot find the people to staff clerk positions, as the candidates for those jobs all fail the drug test. 

America has become a nation of dopers.  In some States roughly 12% of the adult population consists of drug addicts. You go into a town like Huntington, West Virginia  (on the Upper Ohio River) where the steel mills have all closed, and all you find is a population of addicts.  These folks are unfortunately un-hireable, simply because, in today's health-care setup, they have to steal in order to raise the money to buy their narcotics.  The stealing takes the form of employee theft (what the stores call "inventory shrinkage"),  caused both by outsiders and by store personnel.  Retailers work with a minimum shrinkage of 1%, and where drug addicts are rampant, it goes to 2%. It is one of the major causes of retail shops closing, particularly the smaller ones along Main Street, leading to boarded-up storefronts, the classic sign of a decaying town. 

Nothing changes until the treatment of addicts changes, and (of course) the way society deals with drug salesmen.  You can go build all the Walls you want, but there is so much money involved, just go buy yourself a Border Guard to wave your truck through and another 80,000-lb load of narcotics breezes through the border post.  Who is Washington kidding? 

I agree there's more Dopers today, but I personally know of at least four Steel Mills in Huntington, WV that are open and producing steel and steel related metals. I know this, because I buy from one of them. Don't know where you got the info from, but it's bogus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

90% of the charging is done at home, assuming that charge gets you where you want to go. If you break routine and need a charge away from home, you need to plan the trip around the immature charging infrastructure. The more EV's on the road will PROBABLY stress the charging facilities away from home.

This all becomes a pain in the butt that could have been avoided by hanging onto the old, paid for, KIA.

Many people will not have the financial resources to pop for the 'Tesla Option'.

I'll pass on the Kia. A new or good used used Honda Civic gets 40+ MPG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, BakoDave said:

I agree there's more Dopers today, but I personally know of at least four Steel Mills in Huntington, WV that are open and producing steel and steel related metals. I know this, because I buy from one of them. Don't know where you got the info from, but it's bogus.

Thanks for the update!  Yes, my information is dated.  I had that from the then-mayor, must be about four years back.  They were likely closed then, prior to the steel tariffs now instituted.   Good to hear that there is new life back in Huntington!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

Another in a long line of conversations that are irrelevant and serve only the purpose to pat oil industry fans on the back and say, "we're all good, EVs technology isn't practical and never will be". The fact is that EV technology is perfectly ready for such a trip and more, Tesla have proven it. Even the v2 chargers will get this done in reasonable time but a v3 charger, and these types of chargers are coming boys and girls not only from Tesla but from legacies as well, will give you 125 miles of range in 10 minutes. Combine two of these with a full charge from home of 310 miles or more and you have a total of about 560 miles, more than enough to make the return trip with less then the length it usually takes to fill up that ICEV and take a leak per stop. I do hope nobody here will decide to post that 20 minutes on a 560 mile round trip is "inconvenient" that would be ridiculous.

Anyone taking +500 mile drives on a single day without any stops increases the likelihood of an accident especially if the idea was to go to Vegas to drink and gamble in between so when I hear someone say how it should be possible, my main though is that anyone doing this desrves a hefty fine.

The article should be titled as follows: "The excessive feet dragging of legacy car makers leads to bad performance in the EV sector"

Edited by David Jones
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 6/23/2019 at 8:39 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

Electric Car Major Headache: Waiting Hours for Charging Bay then Hrs to Charge

A trip from LA to Las Vegas and back takes 8 hours by a gas-powered car but 13 hours by an electric vehicle.

The electric vehicle grand vision may flounder on something most drivers take for granted: a quick pit stop.

The inconvenient truth of electric vehicles is they are terribly inconvenient to own and operate. Most cars need a charge after 200 to 250 miles traveled.

Charging them requires finding a charging station, and then an open bay.

The New York Times reports L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In.

...

I have owned a Tesla Model 3 since Oct 2018.  I often make long trips, the navigation system inputs stops at "superchargers" which typically take 20 minutes or less.  The round trip is about 538 miles.  I would start with about 300 miles of charge, at highway speeds, about 250 miles is reasonable, efficiency is a bit lower at 75 vs 55 MPH.  Generally one tries to keep the battery above 15% SOC, for best battery longevity.  So say 200 miles between charges.  Might add an hour to the trip, except that most people stop for a break when making such trips anyway, so if we figure typically a half hour of bathroom breaks might be included in an 8 hour trip, it's really only an extra half hour.  I typically stop for lunch or dinner while charging and it adds no time at all.

With a Chevy Bolt, the car charges much more slowly.  A Tesla is far superior and I have never needed to wait for an open spot at a Tesla Supercharger, though it may occur in California.  The superchargers are conveniently located on US interstates, when you get off the beaten path, it could be a problem as a "destination charger" is much slower.

The car is far superior to anything I have driven in the past, but I have never owned a luxury German car, best prior car was a Toyota Camry XLE (1997 V6 and currently a 2013 Camry hybrid).

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

90% of the charging is done at home, assuming that charge gets you where you want to go. If you break routine and need a charge away from home, you need to plan the trip around the immature charging infrastructure. The more EV's on the road will PROBABLY stress the charging facilities away from home.

This all becomes a pain in the butt that could have been avoided by hanging onto the old, paid for, KIA.

Many people will not have the financial resources to pop for the 'Tesla Option'.

Douglas,

The Tesla Option is not very different from the Chevy Bolt option (an extra 2000 for a car with similar range of 240 miles), but is a much nicer car with far superior charging options.  Nobody has built out their charging infrastructure like Tesla has.  This may change, but currently Tesla owners have a big advantage over other types of EVs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being a former engineer for a large power company and having earned a Master of Science in Energy and the Environment, I had PV panels installed three years ago, with my estimated payback of 15-17 years, . . the right thing for an eco-freak to do. Before they could be installed, we acquired a VW e-Golf electric car. The savings in gasoline alone took the solar system payback down to 3 1/2 years. So, we added a used Tesla Model S, P85, and that took the payback down to less than three years, which means we now get free power for household and transportation.

But that is not all: We do not need to go to gas stations, we fuel up at home at night with cheap baseload power. During the daytime, the PV system turns our meter backwards powering the neighborhood with clean local power, which we trade for the stuff to be used that night. If we paid for transportation fuel, the VW would cost us 4 cents/mile to drive, and the Tesla would cost 5 cents/mile at California power prices.

No oil changes are a real treat along with no leaks. And since it has an electric motor, it needs NO ENGINE MAINTENANCE at all. We do not go "gas up", or get tune-ups or emissions checks, have no transmission about which to worry, no complicated machined parts needing care. THAT is what will sell the EV, and the real problem is not powering them, (the power companies have been working on and praying for the EV for a generation), the problem will be  dealing with an economy which has had a large portion taken out of it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reality of EV's as a general mode of transportation will ultimately require driving while charging technology. Historically the roads and rails were built before mechanical transportation was widely utilized. Once a "hot rail" is installed on major thoroughfares then EV's will take over. EV's are dramatically simpler than internal combustion, but prior to today there was no way to bill you for the power. My calculations show that it will require about twice as many BTU's of fossil fuel to generate as much electricity to go the sames distance contained in a gallon of gasoline. Unless fusion is perfected shortly, this makes natural gas look attractive in the future. We just need Elon Musk to scam the government out of a few more billion to begin the process of installation. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sorry, Nick, those are not "facts" being introduced, those are personal prejudices, that do not take into account the real-world aspect of capital financing for the individual.  If you want to treat yourself to a Bolt, you can go to Chevy and get them to write you a Financing Contract.  Go to Tesla as Mr. Average American and you cannot get paper written, as Mr. Tesla has no capital to set aside for writing paper.  Lease it?  Sure, if a leasing company is prepared to take the credit ap. of Mr. Average American, not Mr. Average Stockbroker.  If you cannot finance it, you cannot acquire it.  So you get a Bolt - or stick with that gasoline-engined Ford. 

When I see a financing entity prepared to write paper on any and all buyers, then I can start to assign credibility to the idea that people can treat themselves to a Tesla, Jaguar, or Audi.  Those machines are way too pricey for the credit of Mr. Average. 

Meanwhile, that 20-year-old Hyundai is more the speed of Mr. Average.  So, he buys some gasoline for his road trip.  Way of the world.

Sure you can get a loan to buy a Tesla, but you are correct that Tesla does not subsidize the loan as Chevrolet does.  So rather than no money down you have to put 5000 down on the Model 3 for a 72 month loan the monthly payment is $569 for the Tesla and $528.40 for the Chevy Bolt (where no down payment is required.)

Note that the Chevy price is for Well qualified buyers (rather than Mr average).  You are absolutely right that the average person does not buy a new car, they prefer a car that is broken in :)

The fact is that most of the EVs on US roads are Teslas and the problem of the article disappears, plenty of non-average Americans can afford a Tesla for 40k (36k after current incentive).  A Bolt is 36k (32 after Federal incentive).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

 Bill, give it a rest. Four out of five cars sold in the USA are used cars.  Those folks do not buy "new" because they don't have either the money or the credit to buy anything new.  So they buy used.  Those used cars have gasoline engines. 

In 2018, there were 58 million automobiles sold in the USA.  your vaunted 150,000 electric Tesla machines amounts to this tiny little pebble in that mountain.  You are just obsessed with this idea of electric autos.  And that's fine; you go treat yourself to your toy, that is the nice thing about a capitalistic society with free-market consumer choice as its foundation.  You put down your cash and you go collect your dream machine.  The problem with all that for the rest of society is that those folks are poor, do not have the cash, and do not have the credit, to go indulge in these fancy machines.  So they buy some used gasoline-engine car instead. 

And neither you nor Elon have any solution for that.  So, give it a rest. 

Jan,

The price of the EV will come down as manufacturing scales up, there will eventually be used EVs for sale.  We will have to see how well they age.  Output is growing fast and other manufacturers will be joining the fray.

So far through May the Model 3 is the 8th best selling car in the US with 46,425 cars sold through May.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019/06/may-2019-the-best-selling-cars-in-america-every-car-ranked/

Exponential growth can lead to big changes, in 2018 through May sales were 18,305 so sales YTD in 2019 were 2.53 times more than 2018 YTD sales.  

Did you foresee how fast smartphone sales would rise?  I did not, when I saw the first one 12 years ago, it seemed like  a niche product.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sorry, Nick, those are not "facts" being introduced, those are personal prejudices, that do not take into account the real-world aspect of capital financing for the individual.  If you want to treat yourself to a Bolt, you can go to Chevy and get them to write you a Financing Contract.  Go to Tesla as Mr. Average American and you cannot get paper written, as Mr. Tesla has no capital to set aside for writing paper.  Lease it?  Sure, if a leasing company is prepared to take the credit ap. of Mr. Average American, not Mr. Average Stockbroker.  If you cannot finance it, you cannot acquire it.  So you get a Bolt - or stick with that gasoline-engined Ford. 

When I see a financing entity prepared to write paper on any and all buyers, then I can start to assign credibility to the idea that people can treat themselves to a Tesla, Jaguar, or Audi.  Those machines are way too pricey for the credit of Mr. Average. 

Meanwhile, that 20-year-old Hyundai is more the speed of Mr. Average.  So, he buys some gasoline for his road trip.  Way of the world.

Cutting through all the above  lets take a little look and apply Occams razor to the crux of this

Steve Pipkin quoted the Summary of NYT article:

"EVs dont have the battery density nor charging speed to make a journey over 200 miles practical - and good luck finding an open charging station."

Bills response was 

Except some do.

Followed by a list of Vehicle models that do meet the above criteria of having ranges in-excess of 200 miles. 

So in summary Bill introduced the facts of the matter into this debate. The issues about Joe Sixpack raising the finance is another matter. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

First, there are folks that make a run to Vegas as a long day, just for gambling, do not stay over in a hotel (costs money), and roll back at the end of the tour.  So there is no "overnight plug-in."

Second, you assume that you can seek out and find those high-current chargers, that they are free, and that you are willing to spend your gambling-table time sitting around waiting for that car to re-charge. 

Third, those day gamblers do not spend their cash on some Tesla, instead they spend it at the blackjack table.  There goes your idea of a Tesla.  Ain't gonna happen. 

(The smarter gamblers take a tour bus out and back, so they can sleep after losing their shirt, but that is yet another story....)

Fools and their money - easily parted😄

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

First, there are folks that make a run to Vegas as a long day, just for gambling, do not stay over in a hotel (costs money), and roll back at the end of the tour.  So there is no "overnight plug-in."

Second, you assume that you can seek out and find those high-current chargers, that they are free, and that you are willing to spend your gambling-table time sitting around waiting for that car to re-charge. 

Third, those day gamblers do not spend their cash on some Tesla, instead they spend it at the blackjack table.  There goes your idea of a Tesla.  Ain't gonna happen. 

(The smarter gamblers take a tour bus out and back, so they can sleep after losing their shirt, but that is yet another story....)

I see you have set a scenario that suits your position of the EV being unsuitable however I assume not everyone visits LV to gamble. Plenty of people visit for entertainment and will likely stay in a hotel. Other visits maybe for work . 

LA to LV is 270 miles (imperial) so those larger battery EV's will take you there with one mid journey top up (combined with a rest break, coffee & stretch the legs) 

The list price of a 62kwh Nissan Leaf base model is $36000. Often the critics focus on the TESLA option  but this is the top end of the EV market. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, NickW said:

I see you have set a scenario that suits your position of the EV being unsuitable however I assume not everyone visits LV to gamble. Plenty of people visit for entertainment and will likely stay in a hotel. Other visits maybe for work . 

Nick, my lad, I by no means say "the EV is unsuitable..."  Who am I to infringe or impede another's free choice of car?  Hey, this is a capitalist society - you pays yer money and you takes yer choice.  If someone wants to splurge on an EV, hey, more power to him. 

I am merely pointing out that under certain circumstances that trip might be a touch awkward. You have to have the right type of charger connection, you have to have a free charging post, you have to have the time to baby-sit it, and so on.  Now, if you are staying at some hotel, and the hotel has some underground parking garage, then that garage also needs charger points and outlets and so forth.  Either that, or each park slot has a 110-volt plug and you have a device that allows you to slow-charge for the two days that you are at the convention; that would work, also. 

But if none of that works out, then the other solution is to travel by gasoline.  Or the tour bus  (best option of all).  I thought somebody was going to build a railroad to run out there, whatever happened to that idea?  Now, that would be civilized. No driving; have a drink in the observation car and enjoy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, NickW said:

Bills response was 

Except some do.

Followed by a list of Vehicle models that do meet the above criteria of having ranges in-excess of 200 miles. 

So in summary Bill introduced the facts of the matter into this debate. The issues about Joe Sixpack raising the finance is another matter. 

The problem with Bill's List is that you need bucks to get on that List.  With 4 out of 5 autos sold being used cars, it becomes obvious that the average car buyer does not have the ability to contemplate that List, so Bill's List might as well be located on Mars for all the good it does Mr. Average American.  The main reason that car manufacturers continue to add goodies to their cars  (i.e. the power window; now standard, they were unknown options forty years ago) that make them more plush but also push the price up, is that the customers they focus on are "the rich," those who have the cash or the credit to actually be buying customers.  The rest of the hoi polloi has no cash and has no credit, so they buy the old hand-me-down jalopies. 

Here in Vermont, the expression for some clapped-out heap with rust holes that are covered with duct-tape is "Vermont chrome."  The tape is the "chrome."  Hey, as long as the holes are covered up, it will pass Vehicle Inspection. Those are not the customers for fancy new EV machines, and they never will be.  They cannot even buy a used one, because they do not have the cash to install that charger-plug system.  Tesla wall battery?  Roof solar panels? Ha!  Nobody outside the city of Burlington has that kind of cash. OK, maybe the folks in Manchester and Woodstock, but for the hill people and the dairy farmers, forget it. 

I drive around and I see these houses with the paint peeling, and the cars with Vermont Chrome on the rocker panels. Those guys are $200 away from being homeless.  And you think they have the funds to buy a home charging port? Not going to happen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Seems to be alot of folks advertising for Tesla here...

Once you become owner of a Tesla, you become part of a cult. It's as if Tesla is the only car maker in the world and that everyone else should bow down whenever they see a Tesla. 

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bobby P said:

Once you become owner of a Tesla, you become part of a cult. It's as if Tesla is the only car maker in the world and that everyone else should bow down whenever they see a Tesla. 

That is what happens when you make something truly different and better.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bobby P said:

Once you become owner of a Tesla, you become part of a cult. It's as if Tesla is the only car maker in the world and that everyone else should bow down whenever they see a Tesla. 

There are plenty of alternatives to TESLA at lower costs. Tesla is the top end of the EV market. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

The problem with Bill's List is that you need bucks to get on that List.  With 4 out of 5 autos sold being used cars, it becomes obvious that the average car buyer does not have the ability to contemplate that List, so Bill's List might as well be located on Mars for all the good it does Mr. Average American.  The main reason that car manufacturers continue to add goodies to their cars  (i.e. the power window; now standard, they were unknown options forty years ago) that make them more plush but also push the price up, is that the customers they focus on are "the rich," those who have the cash or the credit to actually be buying customers.  The rest of the hoi polloi has no cash and has no credit, so they buy the old hand-me-down jalopies. 

Here in Vermont, the expression for some clapped-out heap with rust holes that are covered with duct-tape is "Vermont chrome."  The tape is the "chrome."  Hey, as long as the holes are covered up, it will pass Vehicle Inspection. Those are not the customers for fancy new EV machines, and they never will be.  They cannot even buy a used one, because they do not have the cash to install that charger-plug system.  Tesla wall battery?  Roof solar panels? Ha!  Nobody outside the city of Burlington has that kind of cash. OK, maybe the folks in Manchester and Woodstock, but for the hill people and the dairy farmers, forget it. 

I drive around and I see these houses with the paint peeling, and the cars with Vermont Chrome on the rocker panels. Those guys are $200 away from being homeless.  And you think they have the funds to buy a home charging port? Not going to happen.

I don't see how this specifically applies to EV's

The scenario you paint above (high lighted in bold) is just as relevant to the new market for BMW, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, GM, VW, Audi, Jag-Land Rover etc etc etc cars. 

The people you describe are in no financial position to buy any new car. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.