The Inconvenient Truth Of Electric Cars

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

10 minutes ago, NickW said:

The people you describe are in no financial position to buy any new car. 

Exactly right.  They have no money.  And that, unfortunately, is a large part of the American landscape.

The argument proffered was that, eventually, electrics would become the used-car jalopies that are out there today.  The additional point is that your electric will then require the installation of charging ports at the home or apartment.  The poor people do not have the extra funds to do that.  So for them living hand to mouth, the electric with its ancillary capital costs, no matter how old and how used that car itself might be, stays out of reach.  At least, when the poor boy picks up a used jalopy, he can go put ten gallons of gas in it for thirty bucks - and not have to spend a formidable two thousand to install a charging port.  Which is money that he will never have. 

Electrics will always remain the cars of the well-to-do.  And while those numbers may be large enough to make the manufacture viable, they will never end up becoming the dominant car, due to the "last mile" cost barriers. 

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Exactly right.  They have no money.  And that, unfortunately, is a large part of the American landscape.

The argument proffered was that, eventually, electrics would become the used-car jalopies that are out there today.  The additional point is that your electric will then require the installation of charging ports at the home or apartment.  The poor people do not have the extra funds to do that.  So for them living hand to mouth, the electric with its ancillary capital costs, no matter how old and how used that car itself might be, stays out of reach.  At least, when the poor boy picks up a used jalopy, he can go put ten gallons of gas in it for thirty bucks - and not have to spend a formidable two thousand to install a charging port.  Which is money that he will never have. 

Electrics will always remain the cars of the well-to-do.  And while those numbers may be large enough to make the manufacture viable, they will never end up becoming the dominant car, due to the "last mile" cost barriers. 

A charging point is not obligatory. You can charge from the mains but I appreciate with the 110V system in the US this will be a much slower process. 

[AcK + 50]

22 hours ago, D Coyne said:

Jan,

The price of the EV will come down as manufacturing scales up, there will eventually be used EVs for sale.  We will have to see how well they age.  Output is growing fast and other manufacturers will be joining the fray.

So far through May the Model 3 is the 8th best selling car in the US with 46,425 cars sold through May.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019/06/may-2019-the-best-selling-cars-in-america-every-car-ranked/

Exponential growth can lead to big changes, in 2018 through May sales were 18,305 so sales YTD in 2019 were 2.53 times more than 2018 YTD sales.  

Did you foresee how fast smartphone sales would rise?  I did not, when I saw the first one 12 years ago, it seemed like  a niche product.

No you did not just do that. Compare the use case for a 36k Tesla to 999 iphone. And there are plenty of good cheaper options available.

Edited June 26, 2019 by AcK

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

31 minutes ago, NickW said:

A charging point is not obligatory. You can charge from the mains but I appreciate with the 110V system in the US this will be a much slower process. 

Thank you for proving you know nothing about power distribution in the USA or electricity at all.  We have both 240V and 120V systems because dear friend there are 2 phases in AC... (Who knew...🙄) that come into every household in the world(3 phases in many parts of the world and all industrial plants around the world).  Not our problem a large portion of the rest of the world does not use this benefit to their advantage allowing lower voltage and lower risk of death, fire, burns. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Wastral

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, Wastral said:

Thank you for proving you know nothing about power distribution in the USA or electricity at all.  We have both 240V and 120V systems because dear friend there are 2 phases in AC... (Who knew...🙄) that come into every household in the world(3 phases in many parts of the world and all industrial plants around the world).  Not our problem a large portion of the rest of the world does not use this benefit to their advantage allowing lower voltage and lower risk of death, fire, burns. 

I don't live in the USA. My understanding was that routinely power outlets are 110/120V as you describe. 

My reference specifically, A charging point is not obligatory infers that I understand that systems are available to get a 220-240v supply. 

A question for you. The plug sockets in your house - whats their voltage and amperage? 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by NickW

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

A question for you. The plug sockets in your house - whats their voltage and amperage? 

Nick, US homes are typically set up with a number of 120-volt, 15-amp circuits.  Typically the house itself has incoming mains of 220-V, single-phase, and either 100-amp or 200-amp breaker, dependent on when the house was built (ore re-built).  Much older homes might have a 60-amp 220-v. fuse panel.  The 220-240 line is composed of two live feeds, each branch being 1110-120 volts to ground.  The voltage across the two live, or "hot," feeds is 240 volts  (used to be 220, but the new nominal is 240).

The largest power circuit feeding a plug is typically the 240-volt line that runs to the clothes dryer.  At the low setting the dryer will consume 6 kw. At the high setting you are at 240v, figure 45 amps, or close to 10 kw.  In theory you could create an extension line with hot plugs on both ends and a breaker switch in the middle, plug one end into the clothes dryer socket (breaker off), the other end into the auto (assuming it can handle an input of 240- single phase), and then stand back as you hit that breaker.  This is a bit mickey-mouse but it could be done - not exactly code!   Now you could also install a new 240 breaker in the distribution box, run an 8-gauge wire outside to a dedicated socket, and then you have the power point to go  connect to your auto, assuming you can build up a flexible line with the proper connectors. I did that to connect my diesel generator to the house circuit, not legal or code by any means as I did not have a disconnect switch in there, but hey it works.  There are lots of ways to do a relatively cheap hook-up, as long as you know what you are doing and don't let the kids mess with it.  Cheers.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

A charging point is not obligatory. You can charge from the mains but I appreciate with the 110V system in the US this will be a much slower process. 

I charge my bike off 110-volt, ordinary plug, drawing about one ampere, takes about two hours twenty minutes to recharge a low battery pack.  Figure a power cost of a dime  (ten pennies).  Now, that is seriously cheap power, for a day running at 45 mph!  Vrooom!

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nick, US homes are typically set up with a number of 120-volt, 15-amp circuits.  Typically the house itself has incoming mains of 220-V, single-phase, and either 100-amp or 200-amp breaker, dependent on when the house was built (ore re-built).  Much older homes might have a 60-amp 220-v. fuse panel.  The 220-240 line is composed of two live feeds, each branch being 1110-120 volts to ground.  The voltage across the two live, or "hot," feeds is 240 volts  (used to be 220, but the new nominal is 240).

The largest power circuit feeding a plug is typically the 240-volt line that runs to the clothes dryer.  At the low setting the dryer will consume 6 kw. At the high setting you are at 240v, figure 45 amps, or close to 10 kw.  In theory you could create an extension line with hot plugs on both ends and a breaker switch in the middle, plug one end into the clothes dryer socket (breaker off), the other end into the auto (assuming it can handle an input of 240- single phase), and then stand back as you hit that breaker.  This is a bit mickey-mouse but it could be done - not exactly code!   Now you could also install a new 240 breaker in the distribution box, run an 8-gauge wire outside to a dedicated socket, and then you have the power point to go  connect to your auto, assuming you can build up a flexible line with the proper connectors. I did that to connect my diesel generator to the house circuit, not legal or code by any means as I did not have a disconnect switch in there, but hey it works.  There are lots of ways to do a relatively cheap hook-up, as long as you know what you are doing and don't let the kids mess with it.  Cheers.

The first sentence answers my point. If an individual wants to do a straight hook up to the mains for home charging (in the USA)  they can - albeit at a slow rate because of the low voltage. From memory the Nissan leaf chargers are 13/15 amps. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, Jan van Eck said:

I charge my bike off 110-volt, ordinary plug, drawing about one ampere, takes about two hours twenty minutes to recharge a low battery pack.  Figure a power cost of a dime  (ten pennies).  Now, that is seriously cheap power, for a day running at 45 mph!  Vrooom!

If you have an EV that you just use for short to medium distance commutes a 15 amp / 120v supply can do it. Say you charge for 10 hours overnight. That's going to put 15-16 KWH into the battery which is enough for 60-70 miles of travel. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, NickW said:

The first sentence answers my point. If an individual wants to do a straight hook up to the mains for home charging (in the USA)  they can - albeit at a slow rate because of the low voltage. From memory the Nissan leaf chargers are 13/15 amps. 

 

Yes, the Leaf "Level 1" charger plugs into an ordinary 120-volt wall socket and will draw your 13 amps.  But as these sockets typically are wired up in parallel in a room or rooms, you do want to choose a socket that is individually wired, to avoid accidentally overloading the breaker and tripping it off.  I.e. no microwave or coffee pot also on the same circuit!

The "Level 2" charger needs that clothes-dryer plug of 240 volts, 50 amps. 

Above is from the spec sheet, checked it before posting.  Cheers.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 minutes ago, NickW said:

If you have an EV that you just use for short to medium distance commutes a 15 amp / 120v supply can do it. Say you charge for 10 hours overnight. That's going to put 15-16 KWH into the battery which is enough for 60-70 miles of travel. 

Nissan figures on five miles per hour of 110-volt charging time.  My guess is that if you are conservative in acceleration it would stretch to six miles. Remember: that does not allow for either heat or Air-conditioning!  So you are running a bit Spartan 🙂.

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nissan figures on five miles per hour of 110-volt charging time.  My guess is that if you are conservative in acceleration it would stretch to six miles. Remember: that does not allow for either heat or Air-conditioning!  So you are running a bit Spartan 🙂.

The car has controls that allow you to pre cool / heat the car before disconnecting which helps preserve vehicle range. 

[NickW + 2,714]

25 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nissan figures on five miles per hour of 110-volt charging time.  My guess is that if you are conservative in acceleration it would stretch to six miles. Remember: that does not allow for either heat or Air-conditioning!  So you are running a bit Spartan 🙂.

The trick with EV's and Hybrids is to avoid braking too hard whenever possible to allow the regenerative brakes to do the braking. Brake too hard and the manual brakes come into play. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

36 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Yes, the Leaf "Level 1" charger plugs into an ordinary 120-volt wall socket and will draw your 13 amps.  But as these sockets typically are wired up in parallel in a room or rooms, you do want to choose a socket that is individually wired, to avoid accidentally overloading the breaker and tripping it off.  I.e. no microwave or coffee pot also on the same circuit!

The "Level 2" charger needs that clothes-dryer plug of 240 volts, 50 amps. 

Above is from the spec sheet, checked it before posting.  Cheers.

IT costs ~$400 to get said plug in garage officially, and most already have it when they switched from electric heat to NAT gas or electric hot water to NAT gas and all that is required is a plug/box to be added.  $250 of which is nothing but red tape, "permits".   This is no different than in Europe as no one has plugs laying around which go over 20 amps and 240V or in the USA same plug just requires a Y connector between 2 120V circuits on different phases.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Wastral

[NickW + 2,714]

7 minutes ago, Wastral said:

IT costs ~$400 to get said plug in garage officially, and most already have it when they switched from electric heat to NAT gas or electric hot water to NAT gas and all that is required is a plug/box to be added.  $250 of which is nothing but red tape, "permits".   This is no different than in Europe as no one has plugs laying around which go over 20 amps and 240V or in the USA same plug just requires a Y connector between 2 120V circuits on different phases.

There you go - even easy to set up for home charging in the USA. 

[tetonper + 17]

Interesting you mention this.  A couple of years ago I was traveling I-70 east bound across CO and KS pulling our 5th wheel.  I was tearing up the road at 60 mph.  Starting just before Vail every few hours that day a Tesla would gobble me up and pass me.  Now granted I was also making stops about every 180 to 200 miles for fuel besides driving slow.  I never saw the Tesla pull off but out of nowhere he would pass me doing 80ish maybe more, he was trucking.  I chuckled each time he would catch back up because I figure he was charging about every 120 to 180 miles out in no mans land of eastern CO and western KS.  The wife cooed about how pretty they were and how she thinks electric cars are a good deal (all said she is still a strong supporter of O&G, she just thinks not having to change oil, mess with gas and diesel pumps and the cutesy look is cool), while I said yep, he will hit Salina about the same time we do!  LOL  I averaged with stops slightly under 50 mph.  Pretty sure the Tesla wasn't much better and I never saw him again after he passed me between Hays and Salina.  Yep that is what I want to do is average 50 mph across I-70 when driving my super efficient, non polluting, fancy Dan sports car, that I paid big bucks to be cool in!  Bottom line, no faster then a pokey truck hauling a big 5th wheel across the mountains and flats!

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

There you go - even easy to set up for home charging in the USA. 

Yes home charging in USA is simple and very easy.  Let just say a certain poster or two knows nothing about VERY simple electrical circuits any high school child should know if said child decided to inform themselves in under an hour of "study". 

[NickW + 2,714]

51 minutes ago, Wastral said:

Yes home charging in USA is simple and very easy.  Let just say a certain poster or two knows nothing about VERY simple electrical circuits any high school child should know if said child decided to inform themselves in under an hour of "study". 

 I was simply making the point that if a consumer wants to plug straight in, in the absence of a 220-240v outlet they are restricted to a half speed charger. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, tetonper said:

Interesting you mention this.  A couple of years ago I was traveling I-70 east bound across CO and KS pulling our 5th wheel.  I was tearing up the road at 60 mph.  Starting just before Vail every few hours that day a Tesla would gobble me up and pass me.  Now granted I was also making stops about every 180 to 200 miles for fuel besides driving slow.  I never saw the Tesla pull off but out of nowhere he would pass me doing 80ish maybe more, he was trucking.  I chuckled each time he would catch back up because I figure he was charging about every 120 to 180 miles out in no mans land of eastern CO and western KS.  The wife cooed about how pretty they were and how she thinks electric cars are a good deal (all said she is still a strong supporter of O&G, she just thinks not having to change oil, mess with gas and diesel pumps and the cutesy look is cool), while I said yep, he will hit Salina about the same time we do!  LOL  I averaged with stops slightly under 50 mph.  Pretty sure the Tesla wasn't much better and I never saw him again after he passed me between Hays and Salina.  Yep that is what I want to do is average 50 mph across I-70 when driving my super efficient, non polluting, fancy Dan sports car, that I paid big bucks to be cool in!  Bottom line, no faster then a pokey truck hauling a big 5th wheel across the mountains and flats!

Why are you assuming the Tesla will get from point A to B any quicker? Thats not something I have seen in any EV marketing material. 

[tetonper + 17]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

Why are you assuming the Tesla will get from point A to B any quicker? Thats not something I have seen in any EV marketing material. 

I did not assume he would get there any faster.  My point is, when he is slower then a vehicle towing 18,000 pounds of serious wind drag on an interstate with primarily open road and 75 mph limits; That Sucks!  Especially when they have a $75,000 X model. Most people I know don't want to be traveling on a 500 mile trip in their luxury car don't want to be getting there at the same time as the rig towing a big camper!   

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

On 6/24/2019 at 3:30 PM, NickW said:

The 60 Kwh Nissan Leaf has a range of about 240 miles (imperial) 

Anyone doing a LA to LV journey is going to want (should) to take a couple of stops on route which is the opportunity to plug into a fast charger while grabbing a coffee and stretching the legs. 

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/range-charging.html?pth=2

Actual mileage is 225 claimed. My brother has one. It has Never achieved even that. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

8 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

I did that to connect my diesel generator to the house circuit, not legal or code by any means as I did not have a disconnect switch in there, but hey it works.  There are lots of ways to do a relatively cheap hook-up, as long as you know what you are doing and don't let the kids mess with it.  Cheers.

Please tell me you at least shut off the main breaker when you plug in your suicide cord 

[avivek 0]

Let us not compare electric to fossil fuel vehicle. What we are doing now is looking for a healthier option which in greater interest of our environment and mankind. What on earth will we do with a fast and efficient running internal combustion vehicle if there wont be any one left to use it. We can shift private vehicles to the electric ones if they are less polluting and a healthy option whereas heavy passenger and cargo vehicles can continue running on gas till they too get a healthier option. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Please tell me you at least shut off the main breaker when you plug in your suicide cord 

Of course I do!  Otherwise I would be back-feeding power from my little generator into the local grid, and if the power came back on, I would totally fry my unit.  Plus, if you are wandering around with a line and a hot plug intending to plug in that generator and the power on the grid is restored, then those prongs would be Hot, and you are dead if you stumble.  So, outside main breaker OFF, and sub-breaker OFF, get everything plugged in, and turn on the sub-panel breaker and when the generator fires up, you are using the existing panel circuitry to power some of your house plugs. 

Is that a mickey-mouse set-up?  You bet your bippy it is.  But remember:  when some hurricane hits, all those tall trees go over, the power lines go down for miles around, and you are without any expectation of power for somewhere between a week and three. Electricity supply up here in the hill country is no mere incidental, it is a critical element, especially in the winter, when loss of power also knocks out both your well water pump  (bye-bye water supply, so there goes you bath) and the heater, so there goes your house piping, freezes and breaks. So you do what you have to do.  Just keep the kids away from the jury-rig, that's all. 

If you do what I do, keep your old car batteries around in the basement and use a small inverter, then you have just enough for lights and your laptop and internet modem, so you only run that generator every few hours, basically to charge up and re-heat the place. Saves on the fuel  (and the noise).  Don't think we are that far removed form some third-world place, such as say India.  Cheers.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

My brother has one. It has Never achieved even that. 

Of course not!  Those numbers are the advertising hype