DayTrader

Hong Kong Protesters Appeal To Trump For Support.

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UK bad too, China good 

There it is 

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On 9/15/2019 at 1:20 AM, DayTrader said:

Nope.

I've not resided in Iran or North Kprea either. 

Wanna know my opinion of them?

I've not been to The Moon either but have a view on that. Is that ok?

As long as your views on them are in line with those of 4cryingoutloud you should be ‘good to go’.

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1 hour ago, 4cryingoutloud said:

So true, something to think about. Your point, re liberty and democracy are not opposite sides of the same coin, is philosophically very interesting. I surmise especially so for Americans, upon whose country the principles of freedom, liberty, and democracy were founded. By implication, if the two ideals can be segregated, then liberty may be manifested without a democracy. This leads then to isolating the meaning of liberty; which definition has been debated since the Greeks. Interesting.

Liberty is manifested without a democracy all day long.  All you need to do is look at any European Monarchy, such as the Netherlands or Belgium or Danmark, and the People assuredly have Liberty, but they pledge their Fealty to the Monarch  (King or Queen).. It is a Monarchy, not a Democracy. Yes, there is an established Parliament, and that acts in the traditional sense of a Parliament, but all Bills passed then go to the Monarch for signature  (think of it as Royal Assent).  And that part is not "democracy."  It is "Monarchy." 

I am a committed Monarchist. Do I have Liberty?  Of course I do.  My Monarch does not tell me what to do, and does not infringe upon my Liberty - and he does not have to.  I freely assent to swear Fealty to my Monarch.  He governs with my assent and my consent. And he takes  that responsibility very seriously.  The King of the Netherlands leads by example.  When the bodies of the Dutch Citizens of flight MH-17, which was shot down by the Russian Mercenaries in the Eastern Ukraine, were brought home, the KIng and Queen escorted the bodies  by riding at the head of the funeral procession from the Airport into the city.  That is Leadership by example. And the population stopped their cars, exited, removed their hats, and stood at attention in respect, all along the roadside route, to the very last man.  All without any Order.  That is what Leadership inspires. The Monarchy at a Finest Hour. 

I invite you to peruse the video link and ponder the majesty of a Monarchy. 

https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html

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Well, well. We seem to have agreement: liberty can be achieved without democracy. I am well aware of the Dutch monarchy, and the ingenuity of the Dutch people: God made the world, but the Dutch made Holland. If people would read the HK Basic Law, they may learn the civil liberties accorded by law in HK are much consistent with the liberties in Holland. 

Continuing with law, The Netherlands and a great many other countries have extradition treaties for fugitives who have broken laws elsewhere and for which reasonable proof has been presented. Hong Kong SAR has no treaty with Taiwan and PR China. The HK protests began when an extradition bill was introduced to the HK Executive, following a clear case of murder in Taiwan. With no treaty, HK is de facto a safe haven for fugitives. I wonder if the Dutch would protest such a bill. One can only wonder why HK residents would create a safe haven for criminals: could the reason be because certain people of wealth know they have committed crimes of graft respecting PR China?

Regardless, the bill was withdrawn long ago and is now null and void. So why continue the protests?  Clearly, other factors and motivations are involved: and should be investigated. 

 

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(edited)

9 minutes ago, 4cryingoutloud said:

God made the world,

I beg to differ. 

Anyway, back to HK. 

9 minutes ago, 4cryingoutloud said:

Regardless, the bill was withdrawn long ago and is now null and void. So why continue the protests?  Clearly, other factors and motivations are involved: and should be investigated. 

There are 5 or 6 things they want. It's not just the bill. 

Edited by DayTrader

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23 hours ago, 4cryingoutloud said:

Well, well. We seem to have agreement: liberty can be achieved without democracy. I am well aware of the Dutch monarchy, and the ingenuity of the Dutch people: God made the world, but the Dutch made Holland. If people would read the HK Basic Law, they may learn the civil liberties accorded by law in HK are much consistent with the liberties in Holland. 

Continuing with law, The Netherlands and a great many other countries have extradition treaties for fugitives who have broken laws elsewhere and for which reasonable proof has been presented. Hong Kong SAR has no treaty with Taiwan and PR China. The HK protests began when an extradition bill was introduced to the HK Executive, following a clear case of murder in Taiwan. With no treaty, HK is de facto a safe haven for fugitives. I wonder if the Dutch would protest such a bill. One can only wonder why HK residents would create a safe haven for criminals: could the reason be because certain people of wealth know they have committed crimes of graft respecting PR China?

Regardless, the bill was withdrawn long ago and is now null and void. So why continue the protests?  Clearly, other factors and motivations are involved: and should be investigated. 

 

You are deliberately distorting facts. 

The people are protesting because China is flagrantly violating the terms of the 1997 HK.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/china-says-legally-binding-hong-kong-handover-treaty-britain/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-china/china-says-sino-british-joint-declaration-on-hong-kong-no-longer-has-meaning-idUSKBN19L1J1

China is trying to take over HK (again for clarity - in violation of their legally binding agreement) in order to leverage HK's special status with other world powers. (That, and it helps hide that capitalism is more successful that communism, and quells a source of dissent against the CCP)

I am very much willing to try and see other people's side, but you sir, are either hugely deceived, or are playing the part of the deceiver. (Not a charge I apply lightly)

To everyone else - look up articles from any free press anywhere, and ask why the people in HK would respond the way they are (or any reasonable people for that matter). One story all the facts align. The other leaves lots of questions that have no good answers.

And, done with this. Wasted enough time. I might return if actual interesting conversation starts again.

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1 minute ago, Otis11 said:

And, done with this. Wasted enough time.

That's exactly what I thought. Bored of the pro China lies. You've sucked me back in damnit

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On 9/24/2019 at 4:51 AM, 4cryingoutloud said:

In plain words, Kent State displays clearly the utter hypocrisy and self-righteousness of some people in this thread. 

I would ask you nicely to avoid making these categorizations of folks participating in the Forum.  Everyone is entitled to their own, and different, point of view.  And I suppose everyone has a streak of "self-righteousness" inside us, going back to Man #1,  Moses.  You will recall his performance,  Charlton Heston waving his Staff and bellowing:  "Behold the wrath of the Lord!"   While it is a push to get that far into self-righteousness, you can reflect that the tendency has a long and colorful history.  Cheers. 

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On 9/19/2019 at 8:16 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

Sorry, but I need link to some docs before I can consider your opinions to be valid.

< bad moderator, bad.  Trolling is BAD. >

I think the O’l “provide me with documents” line  won’t change your opinion and odds are you won’t click on them. Lol I don’t follow most of your links either. Just the way it is. 

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Trolling is great. You just believe in the wrong stuff. Your goal is to sow division, blame and discredit your opponent and then act wounded and claim unfair treatment. It’s all ok. Just the way it is. 

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In competitive debate you must learn to articulate both sides of an issue, explain your view of the “grey” areas because often that is the common ground change can come from. Judges love that.

Commenters online in our era have yet to spend much time exploring the “grey” because endorphins are rarely triggered with polite conversation vrs that feeling of winning, writing cute “drive by comments”. 

But were all human, to be competitive and to fight for ones collective “herd” is rewarded by that belonging feeling. 

Diversity of opinion is great and I am still learning to accept thought that to me makes absolutely no sense. Just how it is. 

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(edited)

23 hours ago, Otis11 said:

You are deliberately distorting facts. 

The people are protesting because China is flagrantly violating the terms of the 1997 HK.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/china-says-legally-binding-hong-kong-handover-treaty-britain/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-china/china-says-sino-british-joint-declaration-on-hong-kong-no-longer-has-meaning-idUSKBN19L1J1

China is trying to take over HK (again for clarity - in violation of their legally binding agreement) in order to leverage HK's special status with other world powers. (That, and it helps hide that capitalism is more successful that communism, and quells a source of dissent against the CCP)

I am very much willing to try and see other people's side, but you sir, are either hugely deceived, or are playing the part of the deceiver. (Not a charge I apply lightly)

To everyone else - look up articles from any free press anywhere, and ask why the people in HK would respond the way they are (or any reasonable people for that matter). One story all the facts align. The other leaves lots of questions that have no good answers.

And, done with this. Wasted enough time. I might return if actual interesting conversation starts again.

Which facts presented by me above do you believe are distorted? 

If a treaty is in effect, do please enlighten us by providing the actual text and date.

The fact is, the UK and China negotiated a hand over, the terms of which were stated in the Joint Declaration. The fact is, a declaration does not constitute a treaty. 

 https://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm

If you read the Joint Declaration, you should note a few key points:  1/ The UK agreed HK was henceforth an integral part of PR China;  2/ HK was granted special, autonomous status; 3/ HK was to be governed by the Basic Law, which was effected immediately, and is to last 50 years. 

As the Basic Law was effected immediately and fully, and continues in effect, the terms and conditions of the Joint Declaration are in fact satisfied fully. Thus, the Declaration is in fact superseded by the Basic Law. This is the point Mr Lu Kang was trying to make. 

Your main stream media journalists are not lawyers, so they would not comprehend the legal progressions. And, they have twisted the words and meanings of Mr Kang. Am I surprised? 

So, by you referring to hearsay, I regret the need to refute your accusation: for the party who is distorting fact is you. 

 

Edited by 4cryingoutloud
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On 9/26/2019 at 9:06 AM, 4cryingoutloud said:

Which facts presented by me above do you believe are distorted? 

If a treaty is in effect, do please enlighten us by providing the actual text and date.

The fact is, the UK and China negotiated a hand over, the terms of which were stated in the Joint Declaration. The fact is, a declaration does not constitute a treaty. 

 https://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm

If you read the Joint Declaration, you should note a few key points:  1/ The UK agreed HK was henceforth an integral part of PR China;  2/ HK was granted special, autonomous status; 3/ HK was to be governed by the Basic Law, which was effected immediately, and is to last 50 years. 

As the Basic Law was effected immediately and fully, and continues in effect, the terms and conditions of the Joint Declaration are in fact satisfied fully. Thus, the Declaration is in fact superseded by the Basic Law. This is the point Mr Lu Kang was trying to make. 

Your main stream media journalists are not lawyers, so they would not comprehend the legal progressions. And, they have twisted the words and meanings of Mr Kang. Am I surprised? 

So, by you referring to hearsay, I regret the need to refute your accusation: for the party who is distorting fact is you. 

 

I never claimed it was a treaty. You did.

They negotiated a deal and both sides agreed to it. Call it what you want. Both agreed.

Now one side is calling it unilaterally dead and openly violating it, yet expecting the other side to uphold their side of the agreement.

You can play as many word games as you like, but that's the base truth of it. Period.

That's what the CCP does. They make what are initially fair agreements, then break their side and cry foul if the other party of the agreement does anything to fall short of their promises (even though the agreement should be declared void).

And while I'm not a lawyer, I have lawyers in my family, I have close friends who are lawyers (and politicians with law and international law backgrounds) and regularly work with lawyers in the course of my work. If you want to fight on actual legal jargon, it's going to be a lot harder fight than you'd expect.

That said, this isn't worth my time... the only reason I'm responding is so people less informed on this particular topic don't fall for your disinformation. And now I'm done. You're repeating the same thing over and over. Just look through the above posts. Nothing changes. Same false points.

C ya.

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(edited)

14 minutes ago, Otis11 said:

Nothing changes. Same false points.

China good. USA bad.

China good. Protesters bad.

China rule good. UK rule bad.

HK police good. USA police bad.

Xi good. Trump bad.

CCP good. Brexit bad.

4cryingoutloud good. Otis bad.

Opinion good. Facts bad.

Edited by DayTrader
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2 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

China good. USA bad.

China good. Protesters bad.

China rule good. UK rule bad.

HK police good. USA police bad.

Xi good. Trump bad.

CCP good. Brexit bad.

4cryingoutloud good. Otis bad.

Opinion good. Facts bad.

 

I've seen you saying this and thought you were being harsh... now I'm seeing the pattern and thinking/realizing I just don't follow as many threads as you so haven't picked up as fast...

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On 9/24/2019 at 5:04 PM, 4cryingoutloud said:

Regardless, the bill was withdrawn long ago and is now null and void. So why continue the protests?  Clearly, other factors and motivations are involved: and should be investigated. 

@Otis11 , the fact he said this shows he knows nothing about the 2019 situation at all.

I have no time for this nonsense.

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(edited)

6 minutes ago, Otis11 said:

I've seen you saying this and thought you were being harsh.

Everyone is saying I'm a bit harsh or angry lol. 

I'm a lovely guy I promise. Just don't have time for BS and these agendas.  

Life is too short.

 

Edited by DayTrader
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On 9/26/2019 at 5:37 PM, Boat said:

Diversity of opinion is great and I am still learning to accept thought that to me makes absolutely no sense.

Nicely put.  I love it when someone with an opposing view can get me to stop and go "Hey WTF!  Good points.  He may be right.  I gotta rethink this."

Echo chambers are boring.

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(edited)

6 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

He may be right.  I gotta rethink this."

Yeah whatever Tom.

I bet that happens loads on here.

Bet you rethink your stance loads with some of this drivel.

Cut the c**p.

 

Edited by DayTrader

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4 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Yeah whatever Tom.

I bet that happens loads on here.

Bet you rethink your stance loads with some of this drivel.

Cut the c**p.

 

I've had complete, 100% sea change shifts in opinions before.  Several years ago, I thought U.S. fracking was unstoppable.  Mike Shellman and Enno Peters managed to convince me otherwise, with facts.  And in the primaries before the last election, I used to be very much anti-Trump, and would write comments poking fun of him.

There are several members here who I generally disagree with, but who have made insightful points that got me to stop and rethink a bit.  Not going to name names, though.

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(edited)

''BLUE MOON'' comes to mind.

Pretty sure Zhong is one of them. Hmm, I will have a think ...

Edited by DayTrader

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10 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Pretty sure Zhong is one of them. Hmm, I will have a think ...

Yep.  There are numerous others too.

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5 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Nicely put.  I love it when someone with an opposing view can get me to stop and go "Hey WTF!  Good points.  He may be right.  I gotta rethink this."

Echo chambers are boring.

Yeah, I've been sat on my a** a few times and changed my views on a few things. I'm very open to change when people are willing to present reasoned arguements... however its endlessly frustrating (and a waste of time) when the other viewpoint doesn't share the willingness to have a rational discussion.

 

You're not going to drive me away by calling me an idiot if you have a well rationed arguement - I could care less of the verbal beating or your opinion of me - but if you're not going to teach me anything nor let me teach you? Be as nice as you want, but not worth anyones time.

(Obviously not directed at you, or anyone in particular)

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On 9/9/2019 at 4:32 AM, Jan van Eck said:

There is one constant in all of these situations:  when the liberty of the public is threatened, the people go out into the streets and carry the American Flag.  Not just one American Flag.  Hundreds of American Flags.  And the reason is perfectly straight-forward: there is nobody else - literally nobody else - who is prepared to step up to the plate and help those people secure their liberty. 

And that, folks, is the quintessential truth about the Americans.  They really are the  Land of Freedom.   Even when the internal fascists and losers try to take it away. Even when the people wrongly elect someone like Lyndon Johnson.  Ultimately, those with the authoritarian tendencies get dumped, and the  standard-bearers of American Freedom get elected, and then yet once again America and the Americans are the ones to guarantee Freedom on the land. 

Where do these brave men come from, the ones who are prepared to put their own lives on  the line to secure Liberty for others on the other side of the planet?   They come from America.  I invite you to ponder that. 

Nice try, but I do like sarcasm! Love it!

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