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rainman

Spain Is On The Edge...Clashes Between Catalonia And "Madrid"

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Spain’s government said Wednesday it would do whatever it takes to stamp out violence in Catalonia, where clashes between regional independence supporters and police have injured more than 200 people in two days. “Everything is prepared and (the government) will act, if needed, with firmness, proportionality and unity,” a government statement said. It said caretaker prime minister Pedro Sánchez was meeting with other national political leaders and “he doesn’t rule out any scenario.” Many people in Catalonia have long fought for it to break away from Spain and become a new European country. Demonstrations have traditionally been peaceful, but not always. Violent clashes erupted in Barcelona and other Catalan towns after Spain’s Supreme Court on Monday handed nine separatist Catalan leaders lengthy prison sentences for their part in an October 2017 effort to achieve independence.
 

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The police violence of the last two days in Barcelona indicates that Spanish authorities think that Catalonia will only remain a part of Spain by force... doesn't smell good.

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Could sound as a mere phrase, but  the only way forward is dialogue and debate, and in this moment the EU could do far more to facilitate both.

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They choose (Catalans) the hardest way ... It's hard to ask for more justice and benevolence for those who act outside the law. Of course, the referendum was organized, but everything looks like a one way street.

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3 minutes ago, damirUSBiH said:

... and in this moment the EU could do far more to facilitate both.

? The awkward silence is not a good look from the EU.

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Spain is a Constitutional Democracy, and as I know there is space for a legal referendum. Spain breaks its law and kills democracy, already costs much...

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10 minutes ago, damirUSBiH said:

Could sound as a mere phrase, but  the only way forward is dialogue and debate, and in this moment the EU could do far more to facilitate both.

The EU role would have to be easy: protect democracy and dialogue. But, as we know - hypocrisy is their middle name...

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Someone said EU could.... Not only they ‘could’ but they should, for the sake of the peace and dignity of Europe.

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9 years for calling for a demonstration.
11,5 years for allowing a debate in Parliament.
10-13 years for asking people what future they want. 
And, now violence against citizens...

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(edited)

31 minutes ago, joze44 said:

The police violence of the last two days in Barcelona indicates that Spanish authorities think that Catalonia will only remain a part of Spain by force... doesn't smell good.

Where do you live mate? Im living here, in Catalonia. The idiotic fanatics who brake the Law and saying “this is piecefull” manifestation are able to understand only police stick in the asshole.
Tell me, what will face any group of people calling “lets block airport and paralyze flightschedule, lets set on fire railways, block the streets, attack the police”, say in USA, RUSSIA, GERMANY etc? 



    

Edited by Dmitry Bedin
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16 minutes ago, BALBOA said:

Spain is a Constitutional Democracy, and as I know there is space for a legal referendum. Spain breaks its law and kills democracy, already costs much...

I supposed you have read constitution of Spain? There is none space for referendum. 

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11 minutes ago, Dmitry Bedin said:

Where do you live mate? Im living here, in Catalonia. The idiotic fanatics who brake the Law and saying “this is piecefull” manifestation are able to understand only police stick in the asshole.
Tell me, what will face any group of people calling “lets block airport and paralyze flightschedule, lets set on fire railways, block the streets, attack the police”? 

    

So, I would say thay you live  in the wrong place. Try, with Belarusia and Moscow, or North Korea: they like to use police, violence, and brutality against freedom of everything.. Sorry, but Franco's time is dead forever. Or, maybe not?

"If there's anything you absolutely hate, why, it must be unconstitutional. Or, if there's anything you absolutely have to have, it must be required by the Constitution. That's where we are. That is utterly mindless."

Antonin Scalia

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13 minutes ago, Dmitry Bedin said:

Where do you live mate? Im living here, in Catalonia. The idiotic fanatics who brake the Law and saying “this is piecefull” manifestation are able to understand only police stick in the asshole.
Tell me, what will face any group of people calling “lets block airport and paralyze flightschedule, lets set on fire railways, block the streets, attack the police”, say in USA, RUSSIA, GERMANY etc? 



    

State enemies, Catalonia , September 2017...

C'mon boy...calm down...

image.png.5f40ef355d456fbae5dd7030c7523e02.png

 

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Democracy is about the rule of law as much as it is about voting. You can't just pick one of them. If the referendum in Catalonia will be copied in many other countries that it is killing the idea of unity that created the european community many years ago. Not just the EU, there are many separatist and secessionist movements in France, Northern Macedonia, Italy, Bosnia and Herzegovina ....

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12 hours ago, rainman said:

Spain’s government said Wednesday it would do whatever it takes to stamp out violence in Catalonia, where clashes between regional independence supporters and police have injured more than 200 people in two days. “Everything is prepared and (the government) will act, if needed, with firmness, proportionality and unity,” a government statement said. It said caretaker prime minister Pedro Sánchez was meeting with other national political leaders and “he doesn’t rule out any scenario.” Many people in Catalonia have long fought for it to break away from Spain and become a new European country. Demonstrations have traditionally been peaceful, but not always. Violent clashes erupted in Barcelona and other Catalan towns after Spain’s Supreme Court on Monday handed nine separatist Catalan leaders lengthy prison sentences for their part in an October 2017 effort to achieve independence.
 

What are the issues in Catalonia? Is this a minority of the Catalans or the majority? Do they have a chance to redress their grievances peacefully?

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8 hours ago, ronwagn said:

What are the issues in Catalonia? Is this a minority of the Catalans or the majority? Do they have a chance to redress their grievances peacefully?

ALL Catalans. 

Why are you not demonising the Spanish govt in the same manner you demonise China for Hong Kong?  Are these two regions not equal in their grievances? Both are now demanding their independence: all Catalans; but not all Hong Kongers. 

Which is the evil tyrant in your eyes?  Remember, if you can, Hong Kong has its own law, its own currency, its own legislature, issues its own passports, and more. The people of Catalan have none. 

 

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2 hours ago, frankfurter said:

ALL Catalans. 

Why are you not demonising the Spanish govt in the same manner you demonise China for Hong Kong?  Are these two regions not equal in their grievances? Both are now demanding their independence: all Catalans; but not all Hong Kongers. 

Which is the evil tyrant in your eyes?  Remember, if you can, Hong Kong has its own law, its own currency, its own legislature, issues its own passports, and more. The people of Catalan have none. 

 

Actually that is factually incorrect 

Approximately 50% of people living in Barcelona are pro independence, the rest want to remain Spanish.

However if you were to travel down the road a few miles to Girona it would be 90% pro independence and 10% Spanish

To say "ALL Catalans" is totally incorrect and is not backed up by any polls

Please do not try to mislead people and deflect from this topic to that of HK/China for your own agenda that you keep prattling on about inanely

 

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5 hours ago, frankfurter said:

ALL Catalans. 

Why are you not demonising the Spanish govt in the same manner you demonise China for Hong Kong?  Are these two regions not equal in their grievances? Both are now demanding their independence: all Catalans; but not all Hong Kongers. 

Which is the evil tyrant in your eyes?  Remember, if you can, Hong Kong has its own law, its own currency, its own legislature, issues its own passports, and more. The people of Catalan have none. 

 

The grievances in China are myriad, very real and very severe. I know of none in Catalonia. Will be researching though. 

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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

The grievances in China are myriad, very real and very severe. I know of none in Catalonia. Will be researching though. 

Ron, keep in mind that Catalonia is basically the city of Barcelona and surrounding area, plus the geography of four provinces  (or states) surrounding the city.  It is the "rich area" of Spain and produces a good chunk of the wealth, disproportionate to its population.  As would be inevitable anywhere, the rich areas get taxed to in effect support the poorer areas, in what are disguised transfer payments.  The Catalans have this long grudge that they nurse about supporting the rest of Spain, which ()together with language) nurses this grievance (and promotes separatism).

But (no real surprise) it is not that simple.  The eastern coast of Spain, along the Med, consumes a disproportionate share of the water, where fresh rwater is pumped from aquifers.  There is limited water and central Spain specifically is desertifying.  That forces the olive producers in central Spain to cut down their trees in order to attempt to preserve at least some olive trees, a huge financial loss to the farmers.  The water is pumped and piped to the coast for the tourist hotels and golf courses, where much of it is squandered.  The Spanish have drastically over-built along the coast, foreigners have flooded in, both for vacation homes and for retirement  (especially from Britain), and their hogging of the water is a huge internal problem.  To the extent that water is now being rationed to Barcelona and the Valencia area, this causes even more frictions. 

There does not appear to be any ready solutions, so violence breaks out.  However, I suspect that if Catalonia breaks away, then other regions would wat to also, such as the Basques, and Spain would cease to exist as a political entity.  That likely unnerves the central authorities more than anything else.  Trust this explains a bit.  Cheers.

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