When Can Electric Cars Compete on Cost with ICE

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 minute ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Furthermore, regardless of how fast the recharging infrastructure comes about, I am sure Eastern Colorado, the Texas Panhandle and the San Rafael Swell will not be ‘first on the list’. Electrics may be great in a city, but would suck in rural America, Canada or Oz.

Agree totally with this.

The only thing I would say is that "rural America, Canada, OZ" is just that rural,  so pollution and saving the planet isnt really a problem as the volume of vehicles/people isn't there. A hybrid is fine in these areas.

In the UK we have a "congestion charge" if we use an ICE vehicle in Birmingham or London, it does deter people from driving and does clean up the city. Maybe China should do the same, although face mask manufacturers might be pissed.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

11 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Agree totally with this.

The only thing I would say is that "rural America, Canada, OZ" is just that rural,  so pollution and saving the planet isnt really a problem as the volume of vehicles/people isn't there. A hybrid is fine in these areas.

In the UK we have a "congestion charge" if we use an ICE vehicle in Birmingham or London, it does deter people from driving and does clean up the city. Maybe China should do the same, although face mask manufacturers might be pissed.

Why would the people in rural anywhere consider a hybrid? Many of these people have their own storage tanks for farm equipment, grain trucks, lawn mowers, chain saws, etc... Yes, a hybrid also has a gasoline motor, but you are adding a complexity do one or more of their vehicles that they do not need or want!

As you said, “...pollution and saving the planet” is not their concern. This goes back to a recent thread where I mentioned that it is ludicrous for those living in the cities mandating how others in the region should live their lives.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

3 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Why would the people in rural anywhere consider a hybrid? Many of these people have their own storage tanks for farm equipment, grain trucks, lawn mowers, chain saws, etc... Yes, a hybrid also has a gasoline motor, but you are adding a complexity do one or more of their vehicles that they do not need or want!

As you said, “...pollution and saving the planet” is not their concern. This goes back to a recent thread where I mentioned that it is ludicrous for those living in the cities mandating how others in the region should live their lives.

Fair point, they're just more efficient so may actually save you money long term.

I agree farms etc there is no point whatsoever

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

6 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Fair point, they're just more efficient so may actually save you money long term.

I agree farms etc there is no point whatsoever

Hey, you make alot of sense, I’m just playing the Devil’s Advocate. ‘Unfunded mandates’ from government really annoy me...😂

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

6 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Fair point, they're just more efficient so may actually save you money long term.

I agree farms etc there is no point whatsoever

Hybrids are NOT more efficient for rural drivers and are more expensive.  Highway mpg for hybird is equal to ICE.  Suburban drivers?  100% Yes or EV.  Rural drivers are driving everywhere at 100km/h+++  

Just picture most of the USA(150 Million people) as ... Poland/Ukraine... One gigantic farm with mostly small towns(20,000) with the medium city over 100miles away for medical or building materials which are not available at your local hardware store. 

[NickW + 2,714]

31 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Hybrids are NOT more efficient for rural drivers and are more expensive.  Highway mpg for hybird is equal to ICE.  Suburban drivers?  100% Yes or EV.  Rural drivers are driving everywhere at 100km/h+++  

Just picture most of the USA(150 Million people) as ... Poland/Ukraine... One gigantic farm with mostly small towns(20,000) with the medium city over 100miles away for medical or building materials which are not available at your local hardware store. 

Not from my experience

Hybrids are more efficient even in rural situations because:

every time you break a significant proportion of that energy is recovered into the battery;

That stored power is then used for low efficiency low speed driving or assisting in high fuel demand acceleration.

Uk rural  - hybrids are very efficient - I get 65-70mpg from my Corolla (Auris) Hybrid estate in rural settings on country lanes and single carriageway A roads.

Its motorways where the efficiency drops off - >75mph and the fuel economy drops to 53-55mpg.  

 

 

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

27 minutes ago, NickW said:

Not from my experience

Hybrids are more efficient even in rural situations because:

every time you break a significant proportion of that energy is recovered into the battery;

That stored power is then used for low efficiency low speed driving or assisting in high fuel demand acceleration.

Uk rural  - hybrids are very efficient - I get 65-70mpg from my Corolla (Auris) Hybrid estate in rural settings on country lanes and single carriageway A roads.

Its motorways where the efficiency drops off - >75mph and the fuel economy drops to 53-55mpg.  

 

 

 

How often are you carrying a load, towing a trailer, etc...

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How often are you carrying a load, towing a trailer, etc...

I don't see what that has to do with the incorrect claim about Hybrids being no more efficient than conventional ICE vehicles in rural settings which is what I was specifically responding to.

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I don’t know if college kids do that today or not, but the takeaway from this discussion, that I see, is that Americans are willing to drive longer distances than Europeans, or surprisingly, Aussies.

Flying, regardless of cost, is not always the answer. What if you need a vehicle where you are going? What if you’ll be there several days or several weeks? Yes, you can rent a car, but perhaps when added to the cost of the flight, flying becomes the more expensive option.

Furthermore, regardless of how fast the recharging infrastructure comes about, I am sure Eastern Colorado, the Texas Panhandle and the San Rafael Swell will not be ‘first on the list’. Electrics may be great in a city, but would suck in rural America, Canada or Oz.

in regard to my wife and I,our respective families  live in Adelaide.

Hmmm - 3 days each way on the Nullabor or 3 hours each way on Jetstar, Virgin or Qnatas flight. Tough one that

If I was going for several weeks and needed a car for the whole period Id look at hire costs and then the Motor rail (which for car only is about $1500 from recollection) before risking life and limb on the most boring drive in the World.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

Not from my experience

Hybrids are more efficient even in rural situations because:

every time you break a significant proportion of that energy is recovered into the battery;

That stored power is then used for low efficiency low speed driving or assisting in high fuel demand acceleration.

Uk rural  - hybrids are very efficient - I get 65-70mpg from my Corolla (Auris) Hybrid estate in rural settings on country lanes and single carriageway A roads.

Its motorways where the efficiency drops off - >75mph and the fuel economy drops to 53-55mpg. 

Move those goal posts... You get that "mpg" due to home charging.   For such driving why bother with a hybrid?  Get an EV and it is cheaper.  Or will be in the future anyways. 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Hybrids are a tick better even on highway than non hybrid. They get aero trim that isnt sext but is good around wind also toyota have essentially a thermus that holds at temp coolant so apont start up there is no warm up time . Full underplayed for wind also most reg cars only have half plates underneath. 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

I launch a jetski into water in summer months I haven't researched if this is possible in a EV.

[NickW + 2,714]

23 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Move those goal posts... You get that "mpg" due to home charging.   For such driving why bother with a hybrid?  Get an EV and it is cheaper.  Or will be in the future anyways. 

I said Hybrid not plug in Hybrid

[PE Scott + 563]

Little bit of devil's advocate here....but I'm excited for a hybrid F150. Fuel efficiency has almost nothing to do with it....the torque and power from an electric motor is so instant it will really benefit towing and slow speed traction, like over rocks or up a sandy hill.

The gas engine will essentially be tuned as a big generator. Ford says it will have 110v and 220v outlets for powering tools and such on location just like a standalone generator or a light plant. That's pretty neat.

If it's a duel electric motor system, maybe it will be full time AWD and get rid of Fords shitty IWE's. Call me an optimist, but I don't think hybrids are all bad and I don't think they've reached their pinnacle yet.

For me, I often times work and live out of my truck if I'm catching a lot of toe preps or drill outs, so the added utility would be nice I think.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Some real world L/100km I have seen with my eyes on dash are

13' tdi Jetta dsg 4.5L/100

16' toyota Prius auto variable 1 speed 4L/100 

14' + 19' ram ecodiesel 9speed 8L/100

14' tuscon auto 6.9L/100

19' grand caravan sport 9L/100

These are highway figures on cruse 110kph at temp over a few km (not instant). Things to remember for eco driving are after 90kph wind resistance is exponentially increased against  drag / frontal surface area. As diesel makes low rpm torque with mods smart driving and say 80kph you could get a jetta to 3L/100km.

But when your beside a Subaru WRX TT getting 12 -18L/100km because buddy is on and of the gas to hear the exhaust and turbo blow off valve.... what's the government going to do? Also my uncle drove a hellcat averaged 58L/100km and a set of tires lmao. Dont think he compares cost there ...

[Rob Kramer + 696]

PE that truck will probably average 4 to 5L/100 . 13' 5.4L f150 get 15L/100 that's 5 speed the 6 speeds get like 13L and current aluminum 2.7L 9 speed TT get like 9/100 . So that cuts current fuel in half and should have other benefits as you stated. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

16 hours ago, remake it said:

Given that Teslas are in the luxury category of the market they actually are a far better value proposition for what you call comparable ICE vehicles, while depending on where in the world you own the vehicle, annual savings on fuel and servicing after favorable taxation policies give can them an edge where ownership extends towards 10 years, and that becomes a significant edge where a lot more travel than "average" annual distances are involved.

I am not familiar with European electric vehicles but they are smaller than American, by far and they don't drive vans, SUVs, and pickup trucks like we do. Natural gas is also a big deal there and is growing. I will be interested to compare the growth of natural gas vehicles and electric throughout the world. Right now there are twice as many natural gas vehicles and they are larger. America is behind several countries in using this clean, cheap, abundant fuel. 

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, PE Scott said:

Little bit of devil's advocate here....but I'm excited for a hybrid F150. Fuel efficiency has almost nothing to do with it....the torque and power from an electric motor is so instant it will really benefit towing and slow speed traction, like over rocks or up a sandy hill.

The gas engine will essentially be tuned as a big generator. Ford says it will have 110v and 220v outlets for powering tools and such on location just like a standalone generator or a light plant. That's pretty neat.

If it's a duel electric motor system, maybe it will be full time AWD and get rid of Fords shitty IWE's. Call me an optimist, but I don't think hybrids are all bad and I don't think they've reached their pinnacle yet.

For me, I often times work and live out of my truck if I'm catching a lot of toe preps or drill outs, so the added utility would be nice I think.

That would lend itself very well to a series hybrid. Electric motor driving each wheel with a battery pack and small engine acting as a genset. Would happily tow. Massive amounts of torque. electric for trips down to Walmart and petrol / diesel for the route 66 run.

Crikey even DB might like it😀

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How often are you carrying a load, towing a trailer, etc...

If you are a tradesman, active sportsman, traveler etc. you are absolutely right. Most people who drive trucks and vans aren't carrying any more than would fit in a small car. Our second vehicle is a 15 passenger NV3500 Nissan. It gets about 15 MPG on the highway and can pull 7,500 pounds. I love the capacity, safety, and power when we travel. We could get by with our Town and Country minivan which we normally use but for long trips and taking trips with relatives. It can even take whole pallets in the back. We are blessed as Americans to have this option. Foreign travelers must be amazed. 

[NickW + 2,714]

7 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I am not familiar with European electric vehicles but they are smaller than American, by far and they don't drive vans, SUVs, and pickup trucks like we do. Natural gas is also a big deal there and is growing. I will be interested to compare the growth of natural gas vehicles and electric throughout the world. Right now there are twice as many natural gas vehicles and they are larger. America is behind several countries in using this clean, cheap, abundant fuel. 

It won't happen for small vehicles but gas would be a great replacement for diesel in buses, coaches and HGV's 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Just now, NickW said:

It won't happen for small vehicles but gas would be a great replacement for diesel in buses, coaches and HGV's 

There are already hundreds of thousands of small autos all over the world that use natural gas. It can also be bifuel or trifuel. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

There are already hundreds of thousands of small autos all over the world that use natural gas. It can also be bifuel or trifuel. 

But not in Europe. The use of CNG has largely been restricted to buses. 

CNG may have had a window of opportunity 10-15 years ago. That time has passed and the focus will be on EV's, Hybrids and Plug in Hybrids

[ronwagn + 6,290]

28 minutes ago, NickW said:

But not in Europe. The use of CNG has largely been restricted to buses. 

CNG may have had a window of opportunity 10-15 years ago. That time has passed and the focus will be on EV's, Hybrids and Plug in Hybrids

Here is what I have on European natural gas vehicles by country. Italy is the leader and will have an impact going forward. 

EU countries	Light Vehicles	Buses	Trucks
Austria	8 100	167	54
Belgium	1 015	3	15
Bulgaria	61 000	280	40
Croatia	219	78	3
Crypus	0	0	0
Czech Republic	6 650	512	81
Denmark	61	26	17
Estonia	300	30	10
Finland	1 600	45	20
France	10 050	2 400	1 100
Germany	95 708	1 735	176
Greece	280	618	102
Hungary	5 000	86	32
Ireland	3	0	0
Italy	880 000	2 300	3 000
Latvia	29	0	0
Lithuania	80	300	0
Luxembourg	230	39	1
Malta	0	0	0
Netherlands	6 498	686	386
Poland	3 050	400	50
Portugal	46	354	86
Romania	0	20	0
Slovakia	1 100	261	65
Slovenia	29	24	5
Spain	905	1 609	1 322
Sweden	43 795	755	2 163
United Kingdom	20	37	621
Total	1 125 768	12 745	9 349
EFTA countries
Iceland	1 350	5	16
Lichtenstein	64	61	18
Norway	124	538	4
Switzerland	11 278	173	129
Total	12 816	777	167
Other European countries
Armenia	192 000	17 300	34 700
Belarus	4 600	0	0
Bosnia & Herzegovina	34	1	0
Georgia	3 000	0	0
Macedonia	7	47	0
Moldova	2 200	0	0
Russia	65 000	10 000	15 000
Serbia	792	58	28
Turkey	1 850	2 000	0
Ukraine	19 400	232 788	135 793
Total	288 883	262 194	185 521
All European NGV countries	1 427 467	275 716	195 037

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

One nice thing about natural gas vehicles is that they can be had by just converting any ICE vehicle 

https://www.thoughtco.com/compressed-natural-gas-conversion-companies-85555

https://www.energiaalliance.com/ Europe

[ronwagn + 6,290]

54 minutes ago, NickW said:

But not in Europe. The use of CNG has largely been restricted to buses. 

CNG may have had a window of opportunity 10-15 years ago. That time has passed and the focus will be on EV's, Hybrids and Plug in Hybrids

Here are the numbers for European EVs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Europe They are still a niche vehicle. It will be interesting to see how they do over the long run. I can't imagine long range trucks working on electricity except as hybrids charged by diesel or gasoline engines.