POTUS Trump signs the HK Bill

[frankfurter + 562]

3 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

then why did your reply to Ron state the below

I believe it WAS you that started the subject of wars and occupations re-read the thread!!

You defended China v India war AFTER stating this

Now who is SICK????

Get back to your medication racist!

I'm a racist?  For pointing out the fact the US military continues to invade and occupy other countries?  People standing against war are racists?  hmmm Maybe you should learn a few definitions? 

Also, if this means I was first to mention war, by inference, then I stand corrected. 

No, I do not "defend" the India/China war, I simply corrected the lie asserting China invaded India: again, the opposite is true.

 

[Papillon + 485]

51 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

what horrors have I committed to warrant your comment for same?

Respectfully sir I am not suggesting that you personally have committed such horrors, we were referring to entire nations. That said, to be frank, and I am paraphrasing, I found your comment regarding ''it is little wonder you think what you do considering your nation's history'' quite disgusting in all honesty and am not surprised at the subsequent replies.

51 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Judge myself?  Ok. According to what standard?  Zionist? Christian? Muslim? Hindu?

Take your pick sir, it is utterly irrelevant as you do not need a belief system to listen to your own heart and honestly judge yourself in my opinion. Also the comment was with regard to judging your own nation as you seem so happily to judge others'. 

51 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

May I ask others do the same: judge themselves? 

I would agree sir and have stated on several occasions and on several threads now that many here seem utterly incapable of looking inwards as they are too busy criticising others. You will note I started the americavchina thread precisely and sarcastically for this reason sir. However, and admittedly it took me a little time with ronwagn, other nations seem able, though reluctantly, to admit that their nation is not flawless. I am happy to be proven wrong and very well may be but you seem to not do this with your own nation, which we all assume to be China. Hence you said the following statement. 

50 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Atrocities in China during 2019?  Please elaborate. 

If you wish to argue sir about this or your record regarding religious camps and human rights then this conversation is a waste of time quite frankly. I have treated you with respect so please don't suggest to me you have no idea what I mean. You will note on threads here I have called out American atrocities also, so please don't further this stupid competition with the comparisons or apparent ignorance of what I'm referring to sir. Also don't suggest ''which standard should I be judged by?'' and list some religions as if you could do any of them anyway.

51 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

How far back in history we look is a moot point. However, should we ignore history's lessons for today? Considering billions of people today live with the enduring consequences of colonialism, world wars, racial wars, regional wars, war on terror, war on drugs, trade war, wars yet to come, nuclear fallout, industrial pollution, continuing hegemony, etc, which year would you choose as the cut-off? 

Again sir I have had discussions about this subject with ronwagn and potentially yourself and remake it. I take your point completely about the cut-off period, but my point would be, yet again, that to base current opinion in the modern day of nations because of their actions in a different era is ludicrous and I believe simply verging on daft racism. I am not saying sir history is not important, of course it is, but it was ronwagn himself who stated along the lines of ''the past is a good indicator of the future''. Sometimes this would be true, of course, merely as the past, by definition, is the only information we have to go on when discussing historical importance in that way. However when you say ''should we ignore history's lessons for today?'' then with respect I would generally say a resounding yes, and I will elaborate.

Again sir, this is because you are judging the British here, in 2019, and their current opinions, based on actions of generations ago. With respect you must realise how ridiculous that is? Do you judge Japan and their people today based on their actions in WWII? Do you judge Italians today based on Caesar? Do you judge Scandinavians today based on the Vikings' behaviour? Do you judge Austrians based on your view of Hitler? Do you judge America today based on slavery? I have a number of these if you really wish sir. I could quite possibly do it with one hundred nations and their past actions. My point is do you judge all of these nations in the same way? If you do, with respect, that is frankly stupid thinking, and I assume you do not, but are merely attacking the nationalities here that you see as attacking your own. In a way I understand this and respect your national pride sir, but as I stated I cannot agree with the judging of entire races and nations based on their forefathers' actions. It is an insult to the present day individual to do so.

30 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I believe it WAS you that started the subject of wars and occupations re-read the thread!!

You defended China v India war AFTER stating this

Yes I believe this is correct sir. However Frankfurter, do you see that who brought up what and when in a thread is rather irrelevant when we are discussing issues over the last century or more? This week alone I have gone exasperatingly from Confucius to slavery to Trump to Tibet to Churchill and so on and so on. Do you see my point sir? 

Respectfully, Papillon. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:34 PM, frankfurter said:

As you seem unaware, Facebook and Twitter do, in fact, censor information, and do, in fact, collude with the USA govt.  Also, USA Immigration used face recognition tech long before the Chinese.  So which regime are you against, in reality?  

The Chinese. Next question....

[Papillon + 485]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

Get back to your medication racist!

A green arrow for me sir? With respect I may have to insist, like Mr van Eck did to myself, that you change that to a purple trophy rather sharpish. Outrageous.

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

7 minutes ago, Papillon said:

A green arrow for me sir? With respect I may have to insist, like Mr van Eck did to myself, that you change that to a purple trophy rather sharpish. Outrageous.

Your as bad as Jan + Day Trader

Jeez!

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

A bit of moderator advice here...

Debate vocifererously, disagree and dissent to your heart's content.  Go ahead and run with scissors, but the the pointy bits pointed toward the ground and not at other people's eyes.

Debate and dissent and humorous jabs are perfectly fine.  But don't post personal insults in anger.

If this thread gets too personal with heated jabs at others (instead of playful poking) then I will temporarily freeze this thread for a day, to let heated emotions settle down a bit.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Your as bad as Jan + Day Trader

Jeez!

When have I asked for upgrades? 

5 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

to let heated emotions settle down a bit.

Yeah Papillon, come on man. ''Buffoon'' - no need for it. 

Sorry Tom, assume was to me, have edited although was bang on. Racists demand certain words that rhyme with tick, but attacking the English of all things, nah, not taking that s**te. Way worse than normal racism LOL. 

#BJ2020

Edited December 13, 2019 by Guest

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, DayTrader said:

Sorry Tom, assume was to me

Wasn't directed to any single person.  I just noticed some people getting a bit hot under the collar and wanted to temper the tempers a bit.

[frankfurter + 562]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:58 PM, Papillon said:

Respectfully sir I am not suggesting that you personally have committed such horrors, we were referring to entire nations. That said, to be frank, and I am paraphrasing, I found your comment regarding ''it is little wonder you think what you do considering your nation's history'' quite disgusting in all honesty and am not surprised at the subsequent replies.

Take your pick sir, it is utterly irrelevant as you do not need a belief system to listen to your own heart and honestly judge yourself in my opinion. Also the comment was with regard to judging your own nation as you seem so happily to judge others'. 

I would agree sir and have stated on several occasions and on several threads now that many here seem utterly incapable of looking inwards as they are too busy criticising others. You will note I started the americavchina thread precisely and sarcastically for this reason sir. However, and admittedly it took me a little time with ronwagn, other nations seem able, though reluctantly, to admit that their nation is not flawless. I am happy to be proven wrong and very well may be but you seem to not do this with your own nation, which we all assume to be China. Hence you said the following statement. 

If you wish to argue sir about this or your record regarding religious camps and human rights then this conversation is a waste of time quite frankly. I have treated you with respect so please don't suggest to me you have no idea what I mean. You will note on threads here I have called out American atrocities also, so please don't further this stupid competition with the comparisons or apparent ignorance of what I'm referring to sir. Also don't suggest ''which standard should I be judged by?'' and list some religions as if you could do any of them anyway.

Again sir I have had discussions about this subject with ronwagn and potentially yourself and remake it. I take your point completely about the cut-off period, but my point would be, yet again, that to base current opinion in the modern day of nations because of their actions in a different era is ludicrous and I believe simply verging on daft racism. I am not saying sir history is not important, of course it is, but it was ronwagn himself who stated along the lines of ''the past is a good indicator of the future''. Sometimes this would be true, of course, merely as the past, by definition, is the only information we have to go on when discussing historical importance in that way. However when you say ''should we ignore history's lessons for today?'' then with respect I would generally say a resounding yes, and I will elaborate.

Again sir, this is because you are judging the British here, in 2019, and their current opinions, based on actions of generations ago. With respect you must realise how ridiculous that is? Do you judge Japan and their people today based on their actions in WWII? Do you judge Italians today based on Caesar? Do you judge Scandinavians today based on the Vikings' behaviour? Do you judge Austrians based on your view of Hitler? Do you judge America today based on slavery? I have a number of these if you really wish sir. I could quite possibly do it with one hundred nations and their past actions. My point is do you judge all of these nations in the same way? If you do, with respect, that is frankly stupid thinking, and I assume you do not, but are merely attacking the nationalities here that you see as attacking your own. In a way I understand this and respect your national pride sir, but as I stated I cannot agree with the judging of entire races and nations based on their forefathers' actions. It is an insult to the present day individual to do so.

Yes I believe this is correct sir. However Frankfurter, do you see that who brought up what and when in a thread is rather irrelevant when we are discussing issues over the last century or more? This week alone I have gone exasperatingly from Confucius to slavery to Trump to Tibet to Churchill and so on and so on. Do you see my point sir? 

Respectfully, Papillon. 

Your comment warrants a considered reply.  I shall revert when my workload lessens.

- regards,

 

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

On 12/13/2019 at 8:29 PM, DayTrader said:

When have I asked for upgrades? 

Oh now who are you kidding😉

[Guest]

LOL I'm serious, when have I said ''upgrade that to a trophy!''  ?

[frankfurter + 562]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:58 PM, Papillon said:

Respectfully sir I am not suggesting that you personally have committed such horrors, we were referring to entire nations. That said, to be frank, and I am paraphrasing, I found your comment regarding ''it is little wonder you think what you do considering your nation's history'' quite disgusting in all honesty and am not surprised at the subsequent replies.

Take your pick sir, it is utterly irrelevant as you do not need a belief system to listen to your own heart and honestly judge yourself in my opinion. Also the comment was with regard to judging your own nation as you seem so happily to judge others'. 

I would agree sir and have stated on several occasions and on several threads now that many here seem utterly incapable of looking inwards as they are too busy criticising others. You will note I started the americavchina thread precisely and sarcastically for this reason sir. However, and admittedly it took me a little time with ronwagn, other nations seem able, though reluctantly, to admit that their nation is not flawless. I am happy to be proven wrong and very well may be but you seem to not do this with your own nation, which we all assume to be China. Hence you said the following statement. 

If you wish to argue sir about this or your record regarding religious camps and human rights then this conversation is a waste of time quite frankly. I have treated you with respect so please don't suggest to me you have no idea what I mean. You will note on threads here I have called out American atrocities also, so please don't further this stupid competition with the comparisons or apparent ignorance of what I'm referring to sir. Also don't suggest ''which standard should I be judged by?'' and list some religions as if you could do any of them anyway.

Again sir I have had discussions about this subject with ronwagn and potentially yourself and remake it. I take your point completely about the cut-off period, but my point would be, yet again, that to base current opinion in the modern day of nations because of their actions in a different era is ludicrous and I believe simply verging on daft racism. I am not saying sir history is not important, of course it is, but it was ronwagn himself who stated along the lines of ''the past is a good indicator of the future''. Sometimes this would be true, of course, merely as the past, by definition, is the only information we have to go on when discussing historical importance in that way. However when you say ''should we ignore history's lessons for today?'' then with respect I would generally say a resounding yes, and I will elaborate.

Again sir, this is because you are judging the British here, in 2019, and their current opinions, based on actions of generations ago. With respect you must realise how ridiculous that is? Do you judge Japan and their people today based on their actions in WWII? Do you judge Italians today based on Caesar? Do you judge Scandinavians today based on the Vikings' behaviour? Do you judge Austrians based on your view of Hitler? Do you judge America today based on slavery? I have a number of these if you really wish sir. I could quite possibly do it with one hundred nations and their past actions. My point is do you judge all of these nations in the same way? If you do, with respect, that is frankly stupid thinking, and I assume you do not, but are merely attacking the nationalities here that you see as attacking your own. In a way I understand this and respect your national pride sir, but as I stated I cannot agree with the judging of entire races and nations based on their forefathers' actions. It is an insult to the present day individual to do so.

Yes I believe this is correct sir. However Frankfurter, do you see that who brought up what and when in a thread is rather irrelevant when we are discussing issues over the last century or more? This week alone I have gone exasperatingly from Confucius to slavery to Trump to Tibet to Churchill and so on and so on. Do you see my point sir? 

Respectfully, Papillon. 

Another party here said he is proud of his nation's accomplishments. My comments are in the context of that nation's imperialism and how the invaded countries suffered horribly by it. In that context, I find the history of that nation to be morally reprehensible. As you have called my morals into question, so do I call yours, in this context.

True, we should not paint all peoples with a broad brush. The party mentioned certain individuals who furthered mankind knowledge, which is undeniable. But knowledge has been furthered by many people worldwide and throughout history, French, Italian, German, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, American, are but a few. I prefer to see such people and their accomplishments not as national results, but as human results.

Your point about how some nations have moved past their terrible pasts is well noted. I agree with you for specific nations, such as Japan; and may I say China?  But I do not agree for USA and UK.  Reason; as you see from the UK party and the US parties here on this site, their sense of pride is nationalistic not humanistic.  Nationalism is a very dangerous pride. Europe incurred 2 devastating wars due to nationalism. Another war of nationalism will destroy our planet.

If I hurl insults to certain parties, it is because they instigated and such is the only language they know. 

I do not seek, but when I encounter bigotry and lies, I will expose and hold the party to account.  You will note when I do so, all parties decline to offer any proof of their claims. In your case, you mentioned you believed certain horrors have occurred in China; and when I requested your explanation, no explanation was presented.

Beyond the moral claim, you have accused me of xenophobia.  To be clear, xenophobia is a deep fear or hatred of foreign parties. I have reviewed my posts, and can find no instance where I have expressed fear or hatred of any party. What I have done is expose the bigotry, hypocrisy, and treacherous history of certain people and their countries. Take any case you choose, such as Hong Kong. The British invasion and occupation is a bloody history of apartheid, ended only 24 years ago;  yet China today, and myself, deal openly and honestly with the UK, putting the pasts behind us and trying to move forward. Yet, only recently the UK sailed a battleship into China waters. 

I suppose we may agree to disagree? 

[Boat + 1,315]

Displaying a little US nationalism here. For the most part the countries we have went to war with earned our biases against them. Rather than lessen their footprint of misdeeds they instead threaten the US and its allies. 
Not intending to lose any of my love for my nation our citizens like me compartmentalize the need to do something vrs what the acting government actually did and the results of the actions.

But to blame the bad results of a war is oversimplified by some silly claim the US should turn a blind eye to threats, human rights and military action.

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

47 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Another party here said he is proud of his nation's accomplishments. My comments are in the context of that nation's imperialism and how the invaded countries suffered horribly by it. In that context, I find the history of that nation to be morally reprehensible. As you have called my morals into question, so do I call yours, in this context.

True, we should not paint all peoples with a broad brush. The party mentioned certain individuals who furthered mankind knowledge, which is undeniable. But knowledge has been furthered by many people worldwide and throughout history, French, Italian, German, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, American, are but a few. I prefer to see such people and their accomplishments not as national results, but as human results.

Your point about how some nations have moved past their terrible pasts is well noted. I agree with you for specific nations, such as Japan; and may I say China?  But I do not agree for USA and UK.  Reason; as you see from the UK party and the US parties here on this site, their sense of pride is nationalistic not humanistic.  Nationalism is a very dangerous pride. Europe incurred 2 devastating wars due to nationalism. Another war of nationalism will destroy our planet.

If I hurl insults to certain parties, it is because they instigated and such is the only language they know. 

I do not seek, but when I encounter bigotry and lies, I will expose and hold the party to account.  You will note when I do so, all parties decline to offer any proof of their claims. In your case, you mentioned you believed certain horrors have occurred in China; and when I requested your explanation, no explanation was presented.

Beyond the moral claim, you have accused me of xenophobia.  To be clear, xenophobia is a deep fear or hatred of foreign parties. I have reviewed my posts, and can find no instance where I have expressed fear or hatred of any party. What I have done is expose the bigotry, hypocrisy, and treacherous history of certain people and their countries. Take any case you choose, such as Hong Kong. The British invasion and occupation is a bloody history of apartheid, ended only 24 years ago;  yet China today, and myself, deal openly and honestly with the UK, putting the pasts behind us and trying to move forward. Yet, only recently the UK sailed a battleship into China waters. 

I suppose we may agree to disagree? 

Frankfurter my point to you in the first place (as you were at the time saying the below and went on to state all the wars in the last 50 years or so the US has been involved in, in a further post) was to just highlight that no country has a "whiter than white" history. Whether that is against another country or to its own people. I actually agree with you that the one example of China v India conflict was NOT instigated by China, that is irrefutable in my eyes and a bad example, but there are others where this was not the case in my link and also as Ron's link shows us below.

I don't want to rake up old disagreements I was merely highlighting the fact that you raised the issues of wars and invasions not anybody else. "let he who has no sin cast the first stone" seems fitting here.

Where I have highlighted one sentence may I suggest sir that if you "hurl insults" then expect them back in spades. Might I suggest that to refrain from hurling insults whether that be against an individual or a nation is probably the right way to approach any debate.

I have stated my personal position on China regarding the state control and also its people earlier in the thread, I believe in my own experiences this is a fair assessment, and if we disagree that is fine as we are both entitled to our opinions.

Respectfully

  On 11/29/2019 at 7:03 AM, frankfurter said:

Your comment cements the dumbed-down assertion.  Have you travelled throughout China?  Where is the proof of your millions?  You believe what your read in the bigoted MSM? Where is their proof?  Have you any idea what persecution means?  Rather than focus your imagination against something you have zero knowledge, why not instead focus upon what is real?  ASSANGE IS PERSECUTED, FOR NO REASON. He has committed no crime, not founded a political movement, nor is a member of any banned religious sect. A crime against humanity needs but one instance, and is no less than a crime against many: numbers are irrelevant to the ideal. You and all Americans must withdraw your heads from the sand, for you will be the next Assange.  "... Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee..."  

Ron Wagner replied with this

Almost 2,000 stories on China to educate you. My collection https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wb2YoQGpSWTz32ljsiA_ey6FLVqc2Dpe7Fnpiqn9lBs/edit

[Papillon + 485]

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

 you believed certain horrors have occurred in China; and when I requested your explanation, no explanation was presented.

With respect sir, do you honestly in your wildest dreams believe China today, or historically, is utterly flawless and has seen no horrors in its past? I have stated time and time again that the British and Americans are far from innocent in certain aspects of their history, but to suggest others need to point out to you your own horrors, as if China has always been a heavenly wonderland, is ridiculous sir.

I do not understand why you seem very happy and eager to attack others' history, and reference other nations that were affected? It reads as if any atrocities done to your own people is fine? For example, in this sentence, I presume the history of your own nation is not morally reprehensible, as the horrors involved your own population and not invaded countries?

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

My comments are in the context of that nation's imperialism and how the invaded countries suffered horribly by it. In that context, I find the history of that nation to be morally reprehensible.

How many died under Mao sir? How many are in re-education camps as we speak? What percentage live in poverty there? How is the average convict treated there? No ''explanation was presented'' as I rather hoped you would be able to admit some of these things in fairness. Here is an article I found in seconds regarding forty five million citizens dying in China over four years. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

May I ask what would your reaction be if I said to you, as you did to Mr Plant, ''it is no wonder you think what you do with a history such as yours!'' ? When it comes to your own horrors, that you seem to need pointing out to you, despite them being your own history, how would you feel if a person today judged you on these national horrors of the past? This is what you did sir, and at the same time you suggest others are hypocritical, and even that they do not know their history? 

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

I do not seek, but when I encounter bigotry and lies, I will expose and hold the party to account.

When will you expose your own nation or history sir and hold it to account for anything?

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Your point about how some nations have moved past their terrible pasts is well noted. I agree with you for specific nations, such as Japan; and may I say China? 

On the other hand, here it seems you can acknowledge ''terrible pasts'', so why do you ask for others to give you detail or examples of these events?

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

What I have done is expose the bigotry, hypocrisy, and treacherous history of certain people and their countries.

I agree sir. As I say, you seem more than happy to do this though while ignoring your own nation. I have stated many times that a national pride is human nature, but I will presume the ''certain people'' you refer to are myself, Mr Plant and DayTrader. Therefore, why is it bigoted for us to have a pride in history and country, but for you it is not? Why is it not hypocritical for you to ignore your own history while attacking others'? Why is my history ''treacherous'' and yours is angelic and guilt free? When will you ''expose'' previous generations and current horrors there? Again, it feels that actions done to one's own people are fine and anything goes. 

The conversation initially sir, or the point atleast that I was trying to make, was to not judge based on past events, as it is not fair on the current generation. History is important of course, but you seem to still be judging users here based on different generations and eras, and see their pride or listed achievements as riddled with bigotry and lies and hypocrisy? Your examples of these events generally were years ago, decades ago, centuries ago, and yet you comment on the people of today based on them.

However, when the tables are turned, it seems you sometimes feel your history is some form of wonderland, with no Mao, horrors, no deaths, no famines, no Tibet, no religious education camps, no removals of organs ... if someone judged China and people today, or even in a century, based on these events of yesterday, would you deem this as fair? I guess my key question is why do you happily point out others' histories and judge people today based on them, while constantly avoiding or not even acknowledging your own? 

9 hours ago, frankfurter said:

The party mentioned certain individuals who furthered mankind knowledge, which is undeniable. But knowledge has been furthered by many people worldwide and throughout history, French, Italian, German, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, American, are but a few. I prefer to see such people and their accomplishments not as national results, but as human results.

Of course it has sir (underlined section). They were merely referring to their own pride in which were their nationality, as I am sure many would with their own nation's people. However I do not feel that you do what the bold section suggests, as when it comes to histories and ''accomplishments'' connected to that, you seem very ''nationally'' orientated, rather than ''human'' orientated. The tragedy is that when it comes to Mao and the millions that died, you seem to ignore human and national elements completely to me. 

With respect, Papillon. 

[Guest]

Seriously we need some kind of ''triple trophy'' option.   @Selva  

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

Frankfurter's silence today is deafening!

@DayTrader you are spot on there, wish I was as eloquent as Papillon!

Mind you I am supposed to be working, so pushed a little for time on this forum in my defence.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Rob Plant

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/29/2019 at 1:03 AM, frankfurter said:

Your comment cements the dumbed-down assertion.  Have you travelled throughout China?  Where is the proof of your millions?  You believe what your read in the bigoted MSM? Where is their proof?  Have you any idea what persecution means?  Rather than focus your imagination against something you have zero knowledge, why not instead focus upon what is real?  ASSANGE IS PERSECUTED, FOR NO REASON. He has committed no crime, not founded a political movement, nor is a member of any banned religious sect. A crime against humanity needs but one instance, and is no less than a crime against many: numbers are irrelevant to the ideal. You and all Americans must withdraw your heads from the sand, for you will be the next Assange.  "... Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee..."  

You refuse to face the facts which I have presented well. I have stated my sympathies with Assange yet you ignore that completely and try to attack me. China must assume responsibility for the evils it perpetrates on millions. 

[Papillon + 485]

16 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Where I have highlighted one sentence may I suggest sir that if you "hurl insults" then expect them back in spades.

Be careful sir, there is little room for politeness here. Use of this word alone may result in said insults being hurled. If one were to use ''sir'' and be a Democrat then I can only imagine the abuse.   /sarc

[frankfurter + 562]

9 hours ago, Papillon said:

With respect sir, do you honestly in your wildest dreams believe China today, or historically, is utterly flawless and has seen no horrors in its past? I have stated time and time again that the British and Americans are far from innocent in certain aspects of their history, but to suggest others need to point out to you your own horrors, as if China has always been a heavenly wonderland, is ridiculous sir.

I do not understand why you seem very happy and eager to attack others' history, and reference other nations that were affected? It reads as if any atrocities done to your own people is fine? For example, in this sentence, I presume the history of your own nation is not morally reprehensible, as the horrors involved your own population and not invaded countries?

How many died under Mao sir? How many are in re-education camps as we speak? What percentage live in poverty there? How is the average convict treated there? No ''explanation was presented'' as I rather hoped you would be able to admit some of these things in fairness. Here is an article I found in seconds regarding forty five million citizens dying in China over four years. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

May I ask what would your reaction be if I said to you, as you did to Mr Plant, ''it is no wonder you think what you do with a history such as yours!'' ? When it comes to your own horrors, that you seem to need pointing out to you, despite them being your own history, how would you feel if a person today judged you on these national horrors of the past? This is what you did sir, and at the same time you suggest others are hypocritical, and even that they do not know their history? 

When will you expose your own nation or history sir and hold it to account for anything?

On the other hand, here it seems you can acknowledge ''terrible pasts'', so why do you ask for others to give you detail or examples of these events?

I agree sir. As I say, you seem more than happy to do this though while ignoring your own nation. I have stated many times that a national pride is human nature, but I will presume the ''certain people'' you refer to are myself, Mr Plant and DayTrader. Therefore, why is it bigoted for us to have a pride in history and country, but for you it is not? Why is it not hypocritical for you to ignore your own history while attacking others'? Why is my history ''treacherous'' and yours is angelic and guilt free? When will you ''expose'' previous generations and current horrors there? Again, it feels that actions done to one's own people are fine and anything goes. 

The conversation initially sir, or the point atleast that I was trying to make, was to not judge based on past events, as it is not fair on the current generation. History is important of course, but you seem to still be judging users here based on different generations and eras, and see their pride or listed achievements as riddled with bigotry and lies and hypocrisy? Your examples of these events generally were years ago, decades ago, centuries ago, and yet you comment on the people of today based on them.

However, when the tables are turned, it seems you sometimes feel your history is some form of wonderland, with no Mao, horrors, no deaths, no famines, no Tibet, no religious education camps, no removals of organs ... if someone judged China and people today, or even in a century, based on these events of yesterday, would you deem this as fair? I guess my key question is why do you happily point out others' histories and judge people today based on them, while constantly avoiding or not even acknowledging your own? 

Of course it has sir (underlined section). They were merely referring to their own pride in which were their nationality, as I am sure many would with their own nation's people. However I do not feel that you do what the bold section suggests, as when it comes to histories and ''accomplishments'' connected to that, you seem very ''nationally'' orientated, rather than ''human'' orientated. The tragedy is that when it comes to Mao and the millions that died, you seem to ignore human and national elements completely to me. 

With respect, Papillon. 

1/ Where have I denied China's past?  The past 200 years of colonial humiliation is indeed a bloody one. And the early days of communist rule were indeed bloody and harsh, made all the worse by US sanctions and threats against China. Nobody denies this, and all wish it had not occurred.  And, though you may not believe, the Chinese people and government have learned from this history and nobody wants a repeat.

2/ You are the one who stated we should not look into distant past, but should go back no further than 20 years. Well, when I consider the past 20-25 years, I see no actions by the Chinese to invade or threaten other countries.  This is in stark contrast to invasions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and may soon to be Iran.  China has lifted over 400 million people out of poverty. China's main cities are now very modern and very safe. Thousands of kilometres for high speed and underground rail have been built.  China's airports are marvels of design, technology, and function. China's growth and accomplishments are unprecedented in history. I think the Chinese have justification to feel proud of their collective sacrifices and hard work. 

3/ You and many others here have accused China of threatening other countries.  I call upon you and others to cite an instance of this. 

4/ Going back to the original topic of this thread, China continues to be threatened by the USA, as the bill so clearly demonstrates.  More such bills are tabled and may follow, with the increased risk of a shooting war.  Is this what you want?  

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

[frankfurter + 562]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

You refuse to face the facts which I have presented well. I have stated my sympathies with Assange yet you ignore that completely and try to attack me. China must assume responsibility for the evils it perpetrates on millions. 

uh what facts?  who and where are the millions of victims you mention?  msm reports have zero credibility. 

[Papillon + 485]

18 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

You and many others here have accused China of threatening other countries.

I don't believe I have done this even once sir, unless you are referring to Tibet, where the 'threat' is rather lost to history, like many lives of peaceful Buddhist monks if I remember rightly. I have seen references to territorial waters close to China and neighbouring countries if you are suggesting this maybe, but I am almost certain I have not accused as you suggest. 

24 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Where have I denied China's past?  The past 200 years of colonial humiliation is indeed a bloody one. And the early days of communist rule were indeed bloody and harsh, made all the worse by US sanctions and threats against China. Nobody denies this, and all wish it had not occurred.

With respect sir this is the first example I have seen from yourself where you talk in a negative sense towards China. I apologise then if you have done it on many occasions, I certainly had not seen it so far until now. 

27 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

You are the one who stated we should not look into distant past, but should go back no further than 20 years. Well, when I consider the past 20-25 years, I see no actions by the Chinese to invade or threaten other countries. 

I understand now, fair enough sir. I can appreciate your position a lot more now. Yes I did indeed make this comment on another thread though I believe, maybe my americavchina, but merely as a reference and suggestion to the thread being recent history and the others being more historical. However I'm sure you will appreciate that was rather a lost cause as the majority of conversations inevitably become about these two nations anyway. But yes, as I say, a fair point.

38 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

China has lifted over 400 million people out of poverty. China's main cities are now very modern and very safe. Thousands of kilometres for high speed and underground rail have been built.  China's airports are marvels of design, technology, and function. China's growth and accomplishments are unprecedented in history. I think the Chinese have justification to feel proud of their collective sacrifices and hard work. 

I don't doubt this or your justified pride for a moment sir.

40 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Going back to the original topic of this thread, China continues to be threatened by the USA, as the bill so clearly demonstrates.

Rather ironically, despite the title of this thread, I fear I am not fully aware what the bill even entailed sir I'm afraid to say. There is clearly much more to it than I thought, but my initial understanding of it was simply that the USA would in effect evaluate the perceived independence of Hong Kong itself, and that this would maybe dictate their future relationship with Hong Kong?  If this is true, then I do not quite see what the fuss is about in all honesty, as I am sure China have stated again and again they are not going against any agreements made in 1997? So why are you, presumably a Chinese citizen, at all concerned by it? Could you explain the significance of the bill sir if possible? 

48 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

More such bills are tabled and may follow, with the increased risk of a shooting war.

Such as what sir, and why would these proposals suggest an increase in likeliness of war? 

49 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

And, though you may not believe, the Chinese people and government have learned from this history and nobody wants a repeat.

I do not doubt this either and get the sense you believe I am somehow anti China or its people, as you suggest I may not believe it sir? I have stated again and again I have a lot of respect for both your nations, on various threads. Respectfully, Papillon.