Papillon

americavchina.com

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1 hour ago, Marcin said:

@Ward Smith& some other users I need to Thank You for focusing my attention on problem of AI and bots at forums. @remake itwas mentioned many times. So i spent some time to investigate this issue at this forum. I managed to identify a very cunning group of bots with 2 handlers working in shifts. The bots are @Tom Kirkman @ronwagn @Jan van Eck @Ward Smith @Rob Plant @Otis11  @DayTrader. Each handler is involved when some „socializing” bot with bot occurs and when bots are giving upvotes for themselves. Circular upvoting  among bots is the great idea. One of the handlers knows a lot about China, the second is just Copy paste guy, so I enjoy when the first  has shift. Although the second is also important as this is the one  more about socializing stuff. Without the help of one of the handlers recently talking a lot about bot issue I would not have found this idea. Unfortunately none of the handlers is specializing in geopolitics. I do not know who employs you. It could be Chinese Propaganda or US Propaganda both have interest in talking nonsense and bashing China, although because of different reasons.

You just told me on my post about China on a different thread it was the best you had read on this site.

Make your mind up Marcin!

 

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2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Please feel free to sign up for our bot training internship.

It would appear sir that the entire website is now alleged to be some form of these bots? What a bizarre place this is. It seems nobody in our technological era need have an opinion any longer, merely fire up the bot and see what happens. Presumably they come off the shelf with some form of pre-set views about other nations and an inability to use the comma with any frequency? This is one somewhat malfunction I have spotted.

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3 hours ago, Papillon said:

It would appear sir that the entire website is now alleged to be some form of these bots? What a bizarre place this is. It seems nobody in our technological era need have an opinion any longer, merely fire up the bot and see what happens. Presumably they come off the shelf with some form of pre-set views about other nations and an inability to use the comma with any frequency? This is one somewhat malfunction I have spotted.

 

AI vs. AI.  Two chatbots talking to each other

 

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7 hours ago, Marcin said:

@Ward Smith& some other users I need to Thank You for focusing my attention on problem of AI and bots at forums. @remake itwas mentioned many times. So i spent some time to investigate this issue at this forum. I managed to identify a very cunning group of bots with 2 handlers working in shifts. The bots are @Tom Kirkman @ronwagn @Jan van Eck @Ward Smith @Rob Plant @Otis11  @DayTrader. Each handler is involved when some „socializing” bot with bot occurs and when bots are giving upvotes for themselves. Circular upvoting  among bots is the great idea. One of the handlers knows a lot about China, the second is just Copy paste guy, so I enjoy when the first  has shift. Although the second is also important as this is the one  more about socializing stuff. Without the help of one of the handlers recently talking a lot about bot issue I would not have found this idea. Unfortunately none of the handlers is specializing in geopolitics. I do not know who employs you. It could be Chinese Propaganda or US Propaganda both have interest in talking nonsense and bashing China, although because of different reasons.

Marcin, I don't see you on the geopolitics forum which I am currently on. No good results for socialists lately. 

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On 12/6/2019 at 7:08 PM, Marcin said:

For me the question about the best country means: best for its citizens. My ranking: Sweden, France, Germany, Switzerland, US (No basis for opinion Been only twice, and only once for longer= 2 months), Poland. China would be last, but again No basis for opinion never been there.

Pardon me.... not trying to be a party pooper but.......... here are some points to be considered: lifestyle, weather, scenery wise, Europe is definitely naturally built and best for the citizens. Saw a documentary few months ago that 75% of the pay goes to tax in a few countries. Comparing social benefits between lowly taxed and highly taxed countries, we might notice the change in lifestyle, family and social value...... Stress level might be very high for those who are taxed 75% out of 1500 earned, or no?? Unless, the countries have gone for free food for all and free water, electricity etc, how do we know what does it feel to live with 500 bucks per month or less for a person or a family of four or more??

It reminded me of a case where the discussion was on greencity index and award.......... Singapore is categorized as the greenest city of SEA and applauded to be so. On a trip there some times ago, and accidentally wandering with various modes of transport in an unfamiliar new block of development, a sudden realization came over me: oh, noooo......... could it be that the reason Singapore, a highly developed nation, is called the greenest city owing to the two rows of trees always found on the road sides and the grass patch seen in every development area?? Shall we have a bird view for overall city development, it wouldn't surprise anyone to find very little green dots available compared to vast areas of development. It might be a matter of scale and dubicity what we are ranking by what our eyes can see within a limited horizon, or no?? ................O.o:$

On 12/10/2019 at 11:47 AM, Enthalpic said:

California needs earthquake proof tunnels, much of the world doesn't and it would just be over engineering /  needlessly more expensive.

 

California needs earthquake proof tunnels, much of the world doesn't and it would just be over engineering /  needlessly more expensive.

 

and terrorist proof..........  (reference: movie - Expert bomb inactivator). 

On 12/10/2019 at 7:16 PM, Rob Plant said:

Haha does she use it on you like Tom's wife?

May be that's why he is in here, like Tom, as mentioned by Jan.........:o

On 12/11/2019 at 6:31 AM, butasha said:

I am just a biased Western stereotypical type person. So please educate me on which part of the thousand years old society runs the reeducation/forced labor camps and force harvests organs from "convicts"? Would that be the Daoism or Confucianism portion of this wonderful society? 

Please keep the response simple... I am a Southern Bubba Western stereotype. ;)

I'm not sure if this is correct but based on deduction from common biology, here's the scenario:

Accroding to some reports, 80-90% of the prisoners will be returning to the cells after the release. They might have little chance to be accepted at common work places, and little opportunities available outside. Human rights grant them life of certainty with a bunk of bed, certainty of hot meal and choice of gardening work compared to outside. When lives are uncertain outside, there might be people who wouldn't mind what are offered inside...........  Hence, the recurrences............ with everyone remains essentially unchanged.

Hard, forced labor erases off the hard edges in them e.g. bad temper, violent, bad mouth.poor ethic or attitude etc. Hard edges are generally caused by excessive, unused energy in the body. Once exhausted, the person would be too tired to fight and etc......... Besides that, it could provide them with skill sets that are needed shall they would like to be employed later. There were a few courses and factories set for prisoners shall they have the basic skill and attitude or temperament required to be employed later. The most humane prisons might be found in the mediteranean and Europe.......... where they have the luxury of bungalow environment........ on a beautiful island..... in a house of one, two or three with all appliances... Lives change because we give them chance and because we care.

Many young lives are unhealthy in the modern era. Shall convicts are punished with death penalty because they have killed the innocent, and would like to spread their final kindness by agreeing to donate their healhy body parts to the needies, why is there a question on this win-win situation?? 

Regarding you Brotherhood........ what does it teach, mind me asking?? What do you believe in??

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10 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

You just told me on my post about China on a different thread it was the best you had read on this site.

Make your mind up Marcin!

 

I was just provocative, I wanted to show some of you how bizarre is the idea of calling some persons here "bots".

I only used the same metrics that you are using. None of you are smarter or to the contrary more stupid than @remake itin discussions at this forum. You call him bot you need to apply this also to yourselves.

@Papillon noticed that persons that have different views and are eager to defend them are called Chinese bots.

@remake it identifies to some extent with China,

@Tom Kirkman@Jan van Eck@Rob Plant@DayTrader@ronwagn@Ward Smith @Otis11 identify themselves with US&UK in opposition to China and EU. What I found really interesting was that most of you have significant exposure to China, have a lot of personal experience. You were living, working in China or Chinese neighbours (like Malaysia), traveling a lot to the country, speak Mandarin, have/had Chinese wifes, many Chinese friends.

According to your personal experience Chinese are smart, happy, hard working people. Chinese are proud of their culture, economic development, proud of immense achievement, immense success that was latest 40 years of their history. They are optimistic. They overhelmingly back their authoritarian authorities. They are sure that they will return to their rightful place as the hegemonic country. Chinese eastern provinces are already more like developed not developing countries.

But you are against your own experience, I am not sure why. I suspect that is because of the rapid changes that recently negatively affect your country (US/UK), the changes that you identify with the Rise of China. In my opinion domestic policies are the root problems responsible for the demise of the United States, not China. So you accept biased sources of information/media that suit your prejudices (not all "Western" sources of information are biased, so it is your choice). Very strong confirmation bias (China builds gazillions of civil engineering marvels, yet when presented with simple data, all you can say is that in 2008 Sichuan earthquake of 8.5 Richter destroyed old&crap school buildings, so all China is crap). One of my favorite biases is: "Everything that China builds is waste/white elephants andwill all collapse due to immense debt load". Furthermore your opinion is that attitudes of Chinese are simple effect of brainwashing, they are wrong about their country status and future.

I am an outside observer. I have never been to China. My interest in China derives from the fact that China just "exploded" in many measures (first in energy sector) that I followed for job related and later also hobby related reasons. For an economist (that also likes history and geography)  the Rise of China is simply interesting. It is not at all about China but very large, very efficient economic organism. Like Roman Empire or Borg Empire.

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Marcin said:

But you are against your own experience, I am not sure why. I suspect that is because of the rapid changes that recently negatively affect your country (US/UK), the changes that you identify with the Rise of China.

My opinions about individual Chinese has nothing to do with my opinion of their government and its foreign policy. Just because we criticised their government you assume we're criticizing their people? Not to mention their government is a ruling hierarchical oligarchy that represents a tiny fraction of their population. They not only do not have a democracy they directly oppose it! Therefore unlike the rather weak logic Bin Laden used to attack civilians, there is no fundamental reason to blame poor Chinese citizens whatsoever. 

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12 minutes ago, Marcin said:

all you can say is that in 2008 Sichuan earthquake of 8.5 Richter destroyed old&crap school buildings, so all China is crap)

Those buildings were brand new! You claim to be Polish but you rarely if ever talk about Poland and continually jump to the defense of China, a country you readily admit you know little about. Or is any of that true? You could be sitting in your office in Shinzen right now wearing your nice shiny uniform doing your Master's bidding.  The nature of the internet, this. 

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51 minutes ago, Marcin said:

@Papillon noticed that persons that have different views and are eager to defend them are called Chinese bots.

36 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

You could be sitting in your office in Shinzen right now wearing your nice shiny uniform doing your Master's bidding.

With all due respect sir, I realise or rather hope you are semi-joking and indeed I still find the whole bot issue rather amusing, but surely you see you have somewhat proved Marcin's point within fifteen minutes?

I don't wish to take a side as it were, merely to be fair. As I say, I found Marcin's post amusing, but now it seems any opposing view, whichever side it comes from, is some form of bot? Is it so hard to believe Mr Smith that a person could defend their homeland with passion, or for a person such as Marcin, who doesn't reside there, to defend their ways? And Marcin, is it so hard to believe some users have a distaste for the Chinese government?

I agree with Mr Smith and as far as I am aware have not read anything negative towards the average Chinese citizen, merely the governmental system, unlike my conversation with the user Frankfurter earlier, who seems happy to insult the British people of today based on actions of former generations. 

With respect, Papillon. 

Edited by Papillon
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48 minutes ago, Marcin said:

the Rise of China is simply interesting. It is not at all about China but very large, very efficient economic organism. Like Roman Empire or Borg Empire.

Just curious, Marcin:  has it ever occurred to you that you might be wrong?

That you  might be wrong in your assessment of Remake It? 

That you might be wrong to say that Jan van Eck is "in opposition to China and EU?'   [And why on earth would I be in opposition to the EU?  Where does that idea come from?]

OK, maybe you are right about the Chinese being a new Borg Empire.  Hey, that one works. 

In all candor, and I am trying to be nice here, because I really admire the Polish people, and I think I will treat myself to a fine Polish lassie for my next wife, someone warm and blonde and with blue eyes that smiles easily and loves children and families  (and that is a lot of women candidates!), you do come across as angry and negative and not very Polish at all.  The Poles have this positive spirit.  Where is yours?

And for the record, and for readers that do not follow all the discussions, I am entirely neutral on the EU.  A bit of a Brussels bureaucracy, but so is London. And Washington.  And even Ottawa.  And New Delhi. So there. 

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53 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Those buildings were brand new! You claim to be Polish but you rarely if ever talk about Poland and continually jump to the defense of China, a country you readily admit you know little about. Or is any of that true? You could be sitting in your office in Shinzen right now wearing your nice shiny uniform doing your Master's bidding.  The nature of the internet, this. 

Per statistics, 5 thousand students killed in 2008 Sichuan earthquake, make 7% of total of 68 thousand casualties, at the moment of the disaster the students were at school. If schools were more dangerous than all other buildings number of casualties would be much higher. I do not know much more about this earthquake.

I wish China were democracy not dictatorship, we are on the same page here, also with all other oilprice commenters (I do not know any example to the contrary).

Personally I do not know any person that would prize human rights record of Chinese authorities.

My view is know your enemy. China IS enemy of both US and EU. Even democratic China would be our enemy simply because it is way too big for this planet. It does not matter that Chinese are nice people, there is simply too many of them. Our globe would be much better place if no country larger than US exist. China as a developed country populated by 18% of global population will dominate this planet in a very sinister way, no matter whether democratic or dictatorship.

It is not a racist hate speech, it is just observation from the field of economics.

In my opinion there are 2 major sins made by developed countries: 1. Underestimation of Chinese development&capabilities, 2. Not solving domestic problems, blaming China for them, and thus making  Chinese hegemony faster.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Marcin said:

China as a developed country populated by 18% of global population will dominate this planet in a very sinister way, no matter whether democratic or dictatorship.

No, it won't. The world is going to disengage from China.  China will proceed to collapse in upon itself, and to maintain control, the Communist Party will have to forego the benefits of trade with outsiders and suppress the local population, forcing the place back to subsistence farming. The risk to the Communists is that the place will break up, and that is a large risk.  So, suppression will be the order of the day. 

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9 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

No, it won't. The world is going to disengage from China.

Why would it Jan? Genuine question, not trying to be a dick. Just because USA is trying to? 

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47 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Just curious, Marcin:  has it ever occurred to you that you might be wrong?

That you  might be wrong in your assessment of Remake It? 

That you might be wrong to say that Jan van Eck is "in opposition to China and EU?'   [And why on earth would I be in opposition to the EU?  Where does that idea come from?]

OK, maybe you are right about the Chinese being a new Borg Empire.  Hey, that one works. 

In all candor, and I am trying to be nice here, because I really admire the Polish people, and I think I will treat myself to a fine Polish lassie for my next wife, someone warm and blonde and with blue eyes that smiles easily and loves children and families  (and that is a lot of women candidates!), you do come across as angry and negative and not very Polish at all.  The Poles have this positive spirit.  Where is yours?

And for the record, and for readers that do not follow all the discussions, I am entirely neutral on the EU.  A bit of a Brussels bureaucracy, but so is London. And Washington.  And even Ottawa.  And New Delhi. So there. 

I am wrong many times, it is actually better learning experience because you remember this longer.

Discussions with @remake it, I could not tell the difference from other commenters, difference that would allow calling him bot.

I remember that he knows Mandarin, defends China as a country, I think he has not mentioned whether he is for democracy and against dictatorship. Yes some of his answers are odd, but too intelligent for a robot. I think he is Chinese, maybe overseas Chinese.

I am sorry @Jan van Eck if you are not in opposition to EU and I alleged this. I try to read EU threads and I am pretty sure that all other guys are anti-EU. Being anti-EU is really bizarre. The fact that you are in opposition to China is not odd. I find it strange that per your stereotype China is a backward country. You were upset when: I just cited some statistics about Chinese steel industry, or later Chinese Navy. My opinion is that numbers, even with some sarcasm could not be just negative or imaginary ?

 

 

Edited by Marcin
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(edited)

15 minutes ago, Marcin said:

I try to read EU threads and I am pretty sure that all other guys are anti-EU. Being anti-EU is really bizarre.

Rob isn't - he voted Remain, and Rasmus certainly isn't. I presume you mean those of us who you listed as bots?  :) 

Ok, quick questions .... if the EU is so amazing, why is it shitting itself at the thought of us leaving? If it's so powerful and eternal and brilliant, why care about us? The ton of money we waste being in it? What's the plan? 

Edited by Guest

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1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

My opinions about individual Chinese has nothing to do with my opinion of their government and its foreign policy. Just because we criticised their government you assume we're criticizing their people? Not to mention their government is a ruling hierarchical oligarchy that represents a tiny fraction of their population. They not only do not have a democracy they directly oppose it! Therefore unlike the rather weak logic Bin Laden used to attack civilians, there is no fundamental reason to blame poor Chinese citizens whatsoever. 

Oh come on you will not suddenly hide behind this generic statement.

 I do not know anybody that is against any other person of any country just because of citizenship. So I am not against Americans, Chinese or even North Koreans, even if admit that delusions of the latter are simple clinical cases above all.

I am against human rights record of China, but my unbiased attitude of outside observer allows me to notice a lot of positive decisions and policies of Chinese meritocracy.

By definition, United States is oligarchy, noty China. There was a paper by US scholars proving this scientifically, by following real policies of US not the narrative/propaganda of mass media. In China place of your birth is not your predestination like in the US. There are many ways of advance in the society (one is career in Communist Party).

 

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19 minutes ago, Marcin said:

I remember that he knows Mandarin, defends China as a country, I think he has not mentioned whether he is for democracy and against dictatorship. Yes some of his answers are odd, but too intelligent for a robot. I think he is Chinese, maybe overseas Chinese.

It doesn't matter, like Papillon said, he may not even be Chinese. I agree. Why is it so ridiculous that someone outside China may defend them? You do it yourself.

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44 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Why would it Jan? Genuine question, not trying to be a dick. Just because USA is trying to? 

Because China has an "absolute advantage" in trade arrangements, and not a "comparative advantage."  Mr. Trump was the first to kick up his heels about that, and others that would prefer to ignore this unpleasant truth, such as Canada's Liberal (Federal) Party, are finding out the hard way that absolute advantage means that the dominant country  (China) can and will throw its weight around, to humiliate and make subservient the partner country. 

So you see that developing pattern around the world.  As to Canada, you have this arrogant seizing of two Canadians, one a former diplomat previously posted to China, in retaliation for the arrest of Miss Meng, she of Hauwei fame, and holding them under sentence of death in a stinking cell with no bed and the lights on 24 hours a day, strictly as punishment for the Meng arrest.  Then the Chinese cancelled the import of canola, so the stuff is sitting in freighter holds in ports in China and cannot get unloaded.  Then China cancels its oil imports, and shuns its intended investments in the Alberta Oilsands.  So you have this Chinese Communist entity that is not shy about abusing and humiliating its so-called "partners."  Who, after that treatment, is going to want to continue to get in tight with those guys? OK, so Justin Trudeau tries to sweep it all under the rug, but that won't survive, not in today's media world. 

Now you go out to the "first ring" of islands off China, places such as Japan and Korea and Taiwan, then South to the Philippines. And you have this bullying by China of the small ring countries.  Taiwan in particular is under the constant threat of direct invasion and occupation.  What keeps Taiwan free is the presence of the massively powerful U.S. navy  (and its super-carriers). What keeps Korea free is their trade deal with the USA and the presence of some 35,000 US troops in South Korea.  Without any of that, Korea would disappear. 

Now, why is China continuing its "Belt and Road" initiative?  What benefit is there for a road or railroad from China to Kabul?  To Tehran?  Not really any.  What those projects do is absorb excess Chinese industrial capacity, which is huge.  I would estimate that some 45% of overall Chinese industrial capacity is "excess," or surplus, or not being used.  So the Chinese run out of places to go build more infrastructure, to absorb that excess steel and concrete and whatever, and some road  or rail off to Iran have the advantage of absorbing that capacity and the excess capital that China is awash in, so they go do that.  

But there is a sinister aspect: a nice new road with heavy-load bridges can also be used for an invasion force, so those countries remain exposed to direct occupation.  Not so friendly, if you are say Kazakhstan.  And that is why these countries will continue to disengage, and China will be left in isolation.  Europe (and UK) will be predictably the last to disengage, as their populations are getting older and not interested in the work to make plastic garbage bags, so they will continue to buy from China.  And even Australia will continue to sell coal and iron ore to China as long as that demand for raw materials continues, but that will taper off once China starts to occupy the Spratley Islands in the South China Sea  (which is inevitable).  So, then what?  

  

Edited by Jan van Eck
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1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

 Not to mention their government is a ruling hierarchical oligarchy that represents a tiny fraction of their population. They not only do not have a democracy they directly oppose it! Therefore unlike the rather weak logic Bin Laden used to attack civilians, there is no fundamental reason to blame poor Chinese citizens whatsoever. 

This is a long presentation from a non-Chinese China expert to a US audience which shows that if you choose to think of China from a Western perspective you will consistently draw poor conclusions.

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2 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

So, then what?  

Fantastic reply, cheers man. 

Well, unless that's one of your posts like I mention in the Time Magazine thread haha 🤣 but I will believe you ...

Thanks again, appreciate it.

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23 minutes ago, Marcin said:

I try to read EU threads and I am pretty sure that all other guys are anti-EU.

I don't think so.  A lot of the posters here are oilmen.  Why would you think some oilman in the oilfields of Texas or Oklahoma even thinks at all about the EU?  Why on earth would they?  It means nothing to them, does not affect their lives.  I don't think they give it even a passing thought.  I think you are seeing bogeymen behind every tree, and it is distorting your vision. 

Americans certainly do not give a damn about the EU.  Americans have no interest.  Try to grasp that. 

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2 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Fantastic reply, cheers man. 

So, don't forget to whack it with the Purple Cup!  I shamelessly hustle votes here. 

---

Ah, now I see you already have!   Great stuff.  I like having my fragile ego stroked. 

Edited by Jan van Eck
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13 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Purple Cup! 

I did, you have no patience.

And yeah I think Marcin is referring to me and Rob maybe. Can't remember the list of bots now but think Rob and I were the only ''Europeans'' (that actually hurt to say)  *cough ''English'' on it, and he is wrong about Rob haha, so not sure where the anti EU is from.

Wait actually Tom and Ron mention it in fairness in terms of globalism and socialism? So Marcin has valid points, just lumped us all in a bit. I believe Ron has an entire laptop dedicated to files on the EU and its inherent evil.

I could have told Marcin the average American doesn't care about the EU hahah but won't get into why ... 

13 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I like having my fragile ego stroked. 

Is that what they call it these days? 

Edited by Guest

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1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

No, it won't. The world is going to disengage from China.  China will proceed to collapse in upon itself, and to maintain control, the Communist Party will have to forego the benefits of trade with outsiders and suppress the local population, forcing the place back to subsistence farming. The risk to the Communists is that the place will break up, and that is a large risk.  So, suppression will be the order of the day. 

I have not found any arguments to back your scenario. How I can tell this scenario is developing ? Any measures ? In 3 years, in 2022, what will have to happen, for you to think that this is really in the cards ?

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1 minute ago, DayTrader said:

I could have told him the average American doesn't care about the EU hahah but won't get into why ...

Keep in mind that the "average American" does not buy French wines.  He does not buy French cheese.  He does not order French onion soup in a restaurant. He does not buy French suits, or anything else French.  The average American buys a nice pick-up truck, something with a big V-8 in it and oversize tires, not some Citroen or (horrors!) Renault. 

Americans do not eat escargots.  They are steak-and-potatoes kinds of guys.  Plus beer. 

Why on earth would Americans even think about the EU/  Much less care about it. I challenge you to find one American, even one, who knows the identity of the President of the European Union  (outside of the diplomatic corps, that is).  You won't find him; that American does not exist. 

Marcin does not grasp this.  He is living in an academic cocoon in central Poland.  Not in Kansas. Or Ohio. 

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