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ronwagn

Indonesia Stands Up to China. Will Japan Help?

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https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3046429/indonesia-stands-china-natuna-islands-can-japan-come-rescue

Indonesia and Japan are arguing with China about their outlandish hegenomy  in the South Pacific. Vietnam, Taiwan, The Philippines and others are also players. The United States Navy is active in the area also. 

Will China find a peaceful way to negotiate a fair deal or will this get uglier? China already has problems with Taiwan and Hong Kong plus its economy. 

A China Coast Guard ship is seen from an Indonesian naval ship during a patrol in Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone north of Natuna island on January 11. Photo: Reuters

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46 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Will China find a peaceful way to negotiate a fair deal or will this get uglier?

Is this a trick question?

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24 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Is this a trick question?

Tom, you made me laugh.

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4 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Tom, you made me laugh.

You gave such a perfect setup for a one liner joke.

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Human Rights Watch: China Is “Existential Threat” To Global Freedom

Warns of “a dystopian future in which no one is beyond the reach of Chinese censors”

Non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch warned Wednesday that if China continues to go unchecked, it threatens to enslave the entire global population and eviscerate freedom for good.

In its annual report, the think tank cautioned that the Communist Chinese government is using technology, censorship and violent repression to such an effective extent that it threatens to fundamentally undermine international human rights forever.

“Beijing has long suppressed domestic critics. Now the Chinese government is trying to extend that censorship to the rest of the world,” the 652-page report concluded.

HRW declared that China is now engaged in the “most intense attack” ever on freedom, and that President Xi Jinping’s government is executing“the most brutal and pervasive oppression that China has seen for decades,” including the implementation of a “nightmarish surveillance system” in Xinjiang province.

The report outlines how China is using its might to systematically silence political dissidents, religious groups, and ethnic minorities.

The report is so damning that Beijing banned HRW executive director, Kenneth Roth, from traveling to Hong Kong to attend an event to release it. Instead, the report was launched at the United Nations headquarters in New York.  ...

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1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch warned Wednesday that if China continues to go unchecked, it threatens to enslave the entire global population and eviscerate freedom for good.

  And why should any of this come as a big surprise?   This is what Communists do - enslave people.   The entire ideology of the Communists revolves around the idea that the individual is forcibly subordinate to the State   (and the State, conveniently, is the Communists).  After they get through with the locals, the next step is the people in the surrounding countries.  Ask the farmers in Ukraine about Stalin, you will get an earful. 

What did you expect from these people - some form of enlightened Jeffersonian Democracy?   Don't make me laugh.  These are Communists.  Try to remember that, the next time you are in some store wanting to buy something, and it is made in China. 

 

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Now would be a perfect time for all of the countries affected by China’s ridiculous 9-line map claims to join forces and stand up to China (with the present situation in Hong Kong and the recent election in Taiwan). It would be nice if the nations concerned with ‘freedom of navigation’ pitched in to help.

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6 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

 And why should any of this come as a big surprise?   This is what Communists do - enslave people.   The entire ideology of the Communists revolves around the idea that the individual is forcibly subordinate to the State   (and the State, conveniently, is the Communists).  After they get through with the locals, the next step is the people in the surrounding countries.  Ask the farmers in Ukraine about Stalin, you will get an earful. 

What did you expect from these people - some form of enlightened Jeffersonian Democracy?   Don't make me laugh.  These are Communists.  Try to remember that, the next time you are in some store wanting to buy something, and it is made in China. 

 

55 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Now would be a perfect time for all of the countries affected by China’s ridiculous 9-line map claims to join forces and stand up to China (with the present situation in Hong Kong and the recent election in Taiwan). It would be nice if the nations concerned with ‘freedom of navigation’ pitched in to help.

 

Related, as far as I'm concerned.  Yes, it's a meme making a joke, but there is truth in it.  Greta ignores China and Asia in her rants, but wants to spread Socialism (Communism lite) to Western nations.  AOC wants Socialism (Communism lite) in the U.S.

707ea5bac05af881677a3737126f9db95562052c850436ba785c33d94d610402.thumb.jpeg.04caa41ddd74b45f2420c6784099bf09.jpeg

 

Means to an end.

 

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Tom, it is four o'clock in the morning in the Midwest and the roosters are still asleep, no excuses for you to be out of bed.  What's going on, you still on Malaysia time?   Get some sleep, man!

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11 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Human Rights Watch: China Is “Existential Threat” To Global Freedom

Warns of “a dystopian future in which no one is beyond the reach of Chinese censors”

Non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch warned Wednesday that if China continues to go unchecked, it threatens to enslave the entire global population and eviscerate freedom for good.

In its annual report, the think tank cautioned that the Communist Chinese government is using technology, censorship and violent repression to such an effective extent that it threatens to fundamentally undermine international human rights forever.

“Beijing has long suppressed domestic critics. Now the Chinese government is trying to extend that censorship to the rest of the world,” the 652-page report concluded.

HRW declared that China is now engaged in the “most intense attack” ever on freedom, and that President Xi Jinping’s government is executing“the most brutal and pervasive oppression that China has seen for decades,” including the implementation of a “nightmarish surveillance system” in Xinjiang province.

The report outlines how China is using its might to systematically silence political dissidents, religious groups, and ethnic minorities.

The report is so damning that Beijing banned HRW executive director, Kenneth Roth, from traveling to Hong Kong to attend an event to release it. Instead, the report was launched at the United Nations headquarters in New York.  ...

Tom, you are propably aware that HRW is US based, US led (by former US officials) and US financed (over 3/4 of donors, how much exactly 75% or 95% is not known) organization.

It is globally perceived as an arm of US foreign policy.

It is perceived (this is also opinion of citizens of democratic European states, many time vocal about this bias) as biased towards goals of US foreign policy, and thus hypocritical, caring about human rights where it is convenient for US goals.

The fact that violation  of human rights is excuse most often used by United States military or government to kill people or sanction foreign countries, and HRW reports are cited as the justification for these killings is not helping.

China and US are in conflict. US wants to contain development of China, that is how Chinese think about recent US policies.

HRW is perceived as arm of hostile power active regime change policies. US government officials were stating many times that regime change in China is their goal.

Perception is that by arriving in Hong Kong, HRW executive wanted to instigate more protests, acting again as an arm of US currentforeign policy of China containment. HRW lost a lot of credibility by this PR stunt.

I personally believe that HRW has some good intentions, but subjective choice of countries and areas of interest and the way HRW findings are later used by US to sanction and kill people is hurting this organization.

If It would severe at least some ties it has with US government it would be perceived as benevolent not only by US citizens.

 

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1 minute ago, Marcin2 said:

I personally believe that HRW has some good intentions, but subjective choice of countries and areas of interest and the way HRW findings are later used by US to sanction and kill people is hurting this organization.

If It would severe at least some ties it has with US government it would be perceived as benevolent not only by US citizens.

Fair enough rebuttal.

On the other hand, I see creeping censorship by China already infecting the Western world, who seem generally all to happy to accomodate Chinese authoritarian censorship in order to make a quick buck. 

For example, Hollywood is already infested with China's censorship.  Criticising China in Hollywood movies is currently verboten, because China has invested loads of money in Hollywood.

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14 hours ago, ronwagn said:

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3046429/indonesia-stands-china-natuna-islands-can-japan-come-rescue

Indonesia and Japan are arguing with China about their outlandish hegenomy  in the South Pacific. Vietnam, Taiwan, The Philippines and others are also players. The United States Navy is active in the area also. 

Will China find a peaceful way to negotiate a fair deal or will this get uglier? China already has problems with Taiwan and Hong Kong plus its economy. 

Ron, your click bate title is not what is in the article itself.

Indonesia and China (and Taiwan) have territorial dispute relating to see area north of Natuna Island. Chinese fishermen (probably with help of Chinese government) are always trying to caught fish there, and are always caught themselves and later released after paying penalties. The opposite situation is in viccinity of other islands were Indonesian fishermen are doing exactly the same. It is part of odd "culture" of South China Sea and all the archpelagos for many decades.

The authors consider scenario were Japan will gang up with Indonesia against these Chinese fishermen. But this actually never happened cause both Indonesia nor Japan would not want to escalate conflict with China.

China is very important for Indonesian territorial integrity.

Many Indonesian islands are inhabitated by indigenius tribes and nations that do not want to be ruled by Indonesia, want independence. Most vocal is West Papua, were there is low-profile uprising against Indonesian rule, with many casualties amongh Papua tribes.

But no action can be officially taken against Indonesia as China (for domestic) reasons is against changing status quo, and would always vote in Security Council.

Both countries have very complex historical, economic , people relations.

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9 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Fair enough rebuttal.

On the other hand, I see creeping censorship by China already infecting the Western world, who seem generally all to happy to accomodate Chinese authoritarian censorship in order to make a quick buck. 

For example, Hollywood is already infested with China's censorship.  Criticising China in Hollywood movies is currently verboten, because China has invested loads of money in Hollywood.

Tom ,sometimes it is even worse. At all universities were Confucius Institutes are present, the faculties employed by these universities as part of Confucius Institute, CANNOT CRITICIZE Communist Party, they loose their jobs if they do.

So in our academia, at our universities we have small, sovereign territories of dictatorship China.

One side note: I do not like when China is named communist.

Communism is a theoretical system of govenment where every citizen gets goods in line with his/her needs.

So communism is how paradise in heaven is probably ruled.

The countries that are nearest this utopia, that have paradise on earth are Scandinavian countries like: Swede, Norway, Finland and Denmark.

China is just dicratorship.

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39 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

... China is just dictatorship.

^ nailed it.

vn9say9z55a41.thumb.jpg.96cd984241356cbc35db1bed9f1908ee.jpg

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5 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Tom, it is four o'clock in the morning in the Midwest and the roosters are still asleep, no excuses for you to be out of bed.  What's going on, you still on Malaysia time?   Get some sleep, man!

I'm normally up around 4am.  No matter what time zone.  Just an early morning person.

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(edited)

10 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Ron, your click bate title is not what is in the article itself.

Indonesia and China (and Taiwan) have territorial dispute relating to see area north of Natuna Island. Chinese fishermen (probably with help of Chinese government) are always trying to caught fish there, and are always caught themselves and later released after paying penalties. The opposite situation is in viccinity of other islands were Indonesian fishermen are doing exactly the same. It is part of odd "culture" of South China Sea and all the archpelagos for many decades.

The authors consider scenario were Japan will gang up with Indonesia against these Chinese fishermen. But this actually never happened cause both Indonesia nor Japan would not want to escalate conflict with China.

China is very important for Indonesian territorial integrity.

Many Indonesian islands are inhabitated by indigenius tribes and nations that do not want to be ruled by Indonesia, want independence. Most vocal is West Papua, were there is low-profile uprising against Indonesian rule, with many casualties amongh Papua tribes.

But no action can be officially taken against Indonesia as China (for domestic) reasons is against changing status quo, and would always vote in Security Council.

Both countries have very complex historical, economic , people relations.

Indonesia is not even physically close to China, except in China's hegemonic dreams. The Chinese diaspora in Indonesia is important however. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Indonesia_relations

indonesia-map.jpg

Edited by ronwagn
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(edited)

Read again latest 6 lines of my comment. Nobody can partition Indonesia cause it is against Chinese interests, but nobody else's interest. For Australia and US interests it would be better if Indonesia is a group of small, fighting with each other countries. Indonesia is the major nation in ASEAN and is very important for China. Natuna conflict is not important for the overall relations. Much more important is situation of Chinese diaspora in Indonesia.

Edited by Marcin2
typo

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14 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

 

R707ea5bac05af881677a3737126f9db95562052c850436ba785c33d94d610402.thumb.jpeg.04caa41ddd74b45f2420c6784099bf09.jpeg

 

AOS is actually really pretty. At least the nicest of all Congresswomen.

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Marcin,

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are Polish.

Do you think that the rest of the world should have ignored the Solidarity movement and the shipyard workers simply because Poland was a ‘puppet’ of the Soviet Union, which was nearby, ruled by a dictator and that freedom for Poland seemed impossible?

Taiwan is in somewhat better position as it is not presently occupied or controlled by China.

To simply sit back and allow China to act, without consequences, especially to ‘grab’ another country which they have no legal ‘title’ to and whose citizens do not want to be Chinese subjects would show a serious lack of honor, responsibility and backbone.

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32 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Marcin,

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are Polish.

Do you think that the rest of the world should have ignored the Solidarity movement and the shipyard workers simply because Poland was a ‘puppet’ of the Soviet Union, which was nearby, ruled by a dictator and that freedom for Poland seemed impossible?

Taiwan is in somewhat better position as it is not presently occupied or controlled by China.

To simply sit back and allow China to act, without consequences, especially to ‘grab’ another country which they have no legal ‘title’ to and whose citizens do not want to be Chinese subjects would show a serious lack of honor, responsibility and backbone.

Totally agree with your moral stance, that is how the world should be organized.

But in reality all Polish cases of dissent against communist rule, did not have any tangible support from ant country, I mean support that can change the facts on the ground in Poland.

That was also the case in 1981 when Solidarity movement was jailed. Economic sanctions had No impact on regime survival. Only the social pact of Poles with Poles made the domestic changes, democratization possible. And we were lucky that Soviet Union was already too weak. 
Otherwise there would be Soviet intervention like: in 1956 in Hungary and in 1968 in Czechoslovakia.

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And China is much stronger vs US then Soviet Union ever was. Economically both countries are more or less on par, weak yuan is kept in order to strengthen employment, and domestic development, make exports profitable and imports expensive.

So yes Douglas we will be sitting and watching fortunately not in the next 10-15 years, while China will take over Taiwan and nothing we can do.

There would be some sanctions from US and EU but symbolic only.

Would give you example it is not nice for Americans but I think it is best to show the events, I do not judge Iraq invasion Polish soldiers were also there.

Lets think about China or EU or Japan in 2003. Pretend  They theoretically wanted to stop invasion of Iraq by US. They were  to weak to react and even to sanction United States.

The same would be with Taiwan around 2035.

And actually morał situation of China is much better, it is for their strategic Security and Taiwan is populated by ethnic Chinese.

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(edited)

You keep referring to America as if it is always the responsibility of the US to provide aid, of any type, to a suffering people. I was referring to the global community.

This is a large part of the problem when discussing global issues with Americans. Others will consistently blame the US for  ‘meddling’ in the business of other countries....but in the next sentence they still expect the US to act as a global policeman!

Support for the Iranian people, the issue of an independent Taiwan or the issue of the 9 Line Map are GLOBAL issues. It would be nice if the rest of the world actually got involved.

Edited by Douglas Buckland
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"To simply sit back and allow China to act, without consequences, especially to ‘grab’ another country which they have no legal ‘title’ to and whose citizens do not want to be Chinese subjects would show a serious lack of honor, responsibility and backbone."

Interesting.  Which country has China grabbed, in your eyes?   

Now, how can the world help the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya?  You telling me the USA has a God-given right to occupy those countries?  Seems to me the citizens there would like to see the US troops be gone. Or how about the outright "grabs" by the US of what became the US Territories?  Is Iran next to be occupied?

 

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1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You keep referring to America as if it is always the responsibility of the US to provide aid, of any type, to a suffering people. I was referring to the global community.

This is a large part of the problem when discussing global issues with Americans. Others will consistently blame the US for  ‘meddling’ in the business of other countries....but in the next sentence they still expect the US to act as a global policeman!

Support for the Iranian people, the issue of an independent Taiwan or the issue of the 9 Line Map are GLOBAL issues. It would be nice if the rest of the world actually got involved.

Are you off your rocker?

The world does indeed support the Iranian people. China has tried to supply Iran with critically needed goods, such as medicines, food, garments. China has tried to provide liquidity by purchasing crude. Europe tried to uphold the nuclear treaty. The world wants to avert a catastrophe.  Who opposes all this?  Who stole Iran's currency reserves? Who killed a general recently?  Only two countries; USA and Israel. The US sanctions everybody and anybody who tries to conduct trade with Iran: to the point of arresting people extra- judicially and territoriality.  If the US can't arrest, then it will murder. 

The issue of an independent Taiwan is only one issue; American.  Formosa belonged to China for centuries prior to the Japanese occupation, then followed by USA intervention to support a fugitive, puppet president.  China has never retreated from its position of Formosa belonging to China: and the entire world accepts this; only the USA does not. 

The South China Sea is an issue for the respective countries to resolve. These countries are sovereign: the USA has zero jurisdiction over any of them. The USA has zero right to intervene. 

If, by backbone, you mean the world should stand up to the USA bully by use of force, I hope the world may be spared from such barbarism. 

 

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First off ‘frankfurter’, please identify which countries that the US is ‘occupying’ as we speak? To meet the definition of military occupation the US would need to have reached, and maintained, ‘effective provisional control’. This is NOT providing a training mission, as in Iraq. So again, what countries or regions is the US occupying?

Formosa may have historically belonged to China, but not the Communist Chinese of the mid 20th century. I assume that you totally discount any claim of the Nationalist Chinese.

“China has never retreated from its position of Formosa belonging to China: and the entire world accepts this; only the USA does not.”...The Taiwanese seem to disagree with this statement, but who cares about them as long as China is happy?

You are obvious anti-American and anti-Israel. I respect your opinions as expressed above, I simply disagree with them.

No further debate is necessary or desired.

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