Don't sneeze. Coronavirus is a threat to oil markets and global economies

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

uh, why would the Chinese release such virus against themselves? 

Because in typical CCP fashion, it was a ramshackle level 4 biocontainment lab build that is all about setting up a bioweapons attack and unconcerned about safety. It seems obvious that the release was accidental. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

if you KNOW, then please SHOW your irrefutable facts and sources.  

 

There are lots of references posted on this thread by others as to the origins or the outbreak and the response to it being suppression and arrest of doctors and people discussing it in public. Including blocking the Hubei and Wuhan government from responding. Plenty of references and video testimony and of dead bodies collected on the streets etc. 

For an economic short view into China finances.Go to Helsinki university's Prof. Malinen

https://twitter.com/mtmalinen/status/1192735913123762182

Then you can peruse any number of posts and interviews by Kyle Bass on financial conditions and real estate and Brian McCarthy

If you are on a Chinese payroll I would suggest you make alternative arrangements for your income.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

uh, why would the Chinese release such virus against themselves? 

Tsu gao? 

[Hotone + 412]

51 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Because in typical CCP fashion, it was a ramshackle level 4 biocontainment lab build that is all about setting up a bioweapons attack and unconcerned about safety. It seems obvious that the release was accidental. 

That may have been the case even up to the 90's, but Chinese science and facilities are quite advanced now.  I first went to Shanghai in 1994 for a few days, when I was working for an American technology company, to conduct a seminar.  I wasn't very experienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backwards at the time.

Today, I would say that the technology in my field is implemented in a different manner by the Chinese, which may be considered on par or even more advanced compared to American technology. 

If this virus is man-made, then this outbreak has all the hallmarks of an American operation.  The US has used the same modus operandi to bring down foreign governments including Libya and Syria...  Precede with incessant propaganda to create negative views, attack the economy and it's leading companies, launch covert action, spread full scale of misinformation and fear to turn the population against its government.  The US has designated the CCP as an existential threat and the stated aim of some is to bring down its leader, Xi Jin Peng.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Hotone

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, frankfurter said:

the bigotry here is beyond astounding.  journalists arrested?  where, when?  the hospitals are over-run, so only the most critical cases can be accepted. would YOUR hospital admit you for a common cold?  even if so, would YOU want to pay for for over -subscribed and -utilised treatment?  etc, etc. 

Asked and answered

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 minutes ago, Hotone said:

That may have been the case even up to the 90's, but Chinese science and facilities are quite advanced now.  I first went to Shanghai in 1994 for a few days, when I was working for an American technology company, to conduct a seminar.  I wasn't very experienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backwards.

Today, I would say that the technology in my field is implemented in a different manner by the Chinese, which may be considered on par or even more advanced. 

If this virus is man-made, then this outbreak has all the hallmarks of an American operation.  The US has used the same modus operandi to bring down foreign governments including Libya and Syria...  Precede with incessant propaganda to create negative views, attack the economy and it's leading companies, launch covert action, spread full scale of misinformation and fear to turn the population against its government.  The US has designated the CCP as an existential threat and the stated aim of some is to bring down its leader, Xi Jin Peng.

Have you read this entire thread? Were Americans so brilliant they got Chinese to steal bio material from Canadian labs, to build a level 4 bio facility in Wuhan and then, what? Occam's razor says you're full of shiff 

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 minutes ago, Hotone said:

That may have been the case even up to the 90's, but Chinese science and facilities are quite advanced now.  I first went to Shanghai in 1994 for a few days, when I was working for an American technology company, to conduct a seminar.  I wasn't very experienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backwards.

Today, I would say that the technology in my field is implemented in a different manner by the Chinese, which may be considered on par or even more advanced. 

If this virus is man-made, then this outbreak has all the hallmarks of an American operation.  The US has used the same modus operandi to bring down foreign governments including Libya and Syria...  Precede with incessant propaganda to create negative views, attack the economy and it's leading companies, launch covert action, spread full scale of misinformation and fear to turn the population against its government.  The US has designated the CCP as an existential threat and the stated aim of some is to bring down its leader, Xi Jin Peng.

First of all, it is the CCP that outright stated its intentions to be an existential threat to the US as in an oft quoted speech on this thread. 

I have no doubt that China has made enormous strides in technology and leads in some areas by quite a margin. I am certain that had they cared more about safety than reaching CCP bioweapons goals, then it would not have been a problem. But they don't.

While it might have been a convenient time for the US to do this kind of attack, the location and staffing of the Wuhan Level 4 "Biosecurity" Lab and the constant line of publications that establish both (1) the bat virus survey not having the ability to attach to human protein receptors and (2) that they showed by recombinant modification that it could happen in nature, but most definitely did in the lab just across the Yangtze from Wuhan's market, it is far more likely to have been an accidental release. Much more so if it is indeed true that the Wuhan coronavirus RNA has sequences unique to HIV, which is perhaps why this non-retrovirus responds to HIV drug cocktails. .

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

3 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Not that you're some kind of bio weapon expert, but logically you'd need the disease first to be able to design the cure. Letting the disease out of the level 4 lab likely wasn't in the plan. 

Some light reading for you

In their defense, they might have been trying to create a vaccine for SARS and botched the job. 

More light reading for you

thanks for the links.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/shoddy-coronavirus-studies-are-going-viral-and-stoking-panic

 

A scientist in India blasted out the provocative finding to his more than 200,000 Twitter followers: “They hint at the possibility that this Chinese virus was designed [‘not fortuitous’]. Scary if true.” A Harvard researcher with tens of thousands of followers called it “very intriguing.” The official-looking, highly technical paper whipped dozens of onlookers into a frenzy, declaring on Twitter and at least one blog that it showed the virus was “man-made” and “not natural” and “prob. not random.”

But that day and throughout the weekend, an army of scientists also tore apart its claims and pointed out there was no proof the matches were anything but a meaningless coincidence.

Preprint servers bypass the long, arduous timelines of traditional, peer-reviewed scientific publishing, and can lead to lightning-speed information sharing during outbreaks like this one. But the coronavirus is also bringing to light the pitfalls of this new system for the first time, as everyone from bad actors to naive ones grasp for new information in a panic-driven climate.

The “uncanny” paper was withdrawn by its authors on Sunday, putting an end to an undeniably messy situation that spread misinformation about a little-understood virus that has so far sickened upward of 20,600 people and killed more than 420, the vast majority near the outbreak’s epicenter in Wuhan, China.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

Much of the early growth and sources of misinformation likely come from the disconnect between local leaders and the central party leadership.  We've watched as the central government has completed two 1,000+ bed hospitals in two weeks to manage the outbreak - there is huge capability there.  The upward reporting, however, leaves a lot to be desired.

Max Fisher has a really good story about this disconnect:

Quote

Ten years ago, China announced it would slash the steel exports that it had been pumping into the global economy for decades. Max, new to the beat, called up an expert and asked whether he was right to see this as a sign of something important: that China was finally transitioning from an export-driven economy, which relies on cheap labor and a cheap renminbi, to a middle-income economy based on domestic consumption.

Economists had always said that China would have to make that transition; it was getting too wealthy to keep its currency and labor so cheap. Political scientists had said it would be essential for the country’s long-term political stability, bringing higher wages and standards of living. But it would also require downgrading the export-driven industries, like steel, that had long fueled growth. And it would mean taking on the politically powerful people who benefited from those industries.

And now it was happening! What great news — right?

The expert laughed at Max’s question (that happens when you’re new to a beat). China had been announcing cuts to its steel production for years, the expert said. And, every year, steel production went up.

China’s central leadership could demand steel cuts until their faces were blue. Out in the provinces, the officials who actually oversaw steel production were going to do no such thing. Pumping out steel was how they grew their provincial economies.

And while it’s true that their bosses had demanded steel cuts, they had also always made economic growth the top priority. Rising G.D.P. figures would be rewarded, but stalls would be punished. Better to take a small hit for overproducing.

And there was also a collective action problem. All of China might be better off if steel production dropped, sure. But officials in individual provinces could only control their little corner of the economy. And if they believed that every other province was going to continue overproducing steel, then cutting back would change nothing.

That expert, of course, was right. The announcement changed nothing: China’s steel production continued to rise.

 

[frankfurter + 562]

4 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/shoddy-coronavirus-studies-are-going-viral-and-stoking-panic

 

A scientist in India blasted out the provocative finding to his more than 200,000 Twitter followers: “They hint at the possibility that this Chinese virus was designed [‘not fortuitous’]. Scary if true.” A Harvard researcher with tens of thousands of followers called it “very intriguing.” The official-looking, highly technical paper whipped dozens of onlookers into a frenzy, declaring on Twitter and at least one blog that it showed the virus was “man-made” and “not natural” and “prob. not random.”

But that day and throughout the weekend, an army of scientists also tore apart its claims and pointed out there was no proof the matches were anything but a meaningless coincidence.

Preprint servers bypass the long, arduous timelines of traditional, peer-reviewed scientific publishing, and can lead to lightning-speed information sharing during outbreaks like this one. But the coronavirus is also bringing to light the pitfalls of this new system for the first time, as everyone from bad actors to naive ones grasp for new information in a panic-driven climate.

The “uncanny” paper was withdrawn by its authors on Sunday, putting an end to an undeniably messy situation that spread misinformation about a little-understood virus that has so far sickened upward of 20,600 people and killed more than 420, the vast majority near the outbreak’s epicenter in Wuhan, China.

The ensuing reaction and publicity in the West simply proves the point westerners are hysterical and victims of their governments.  The 'scientist' reached his conclusion after evaluating ONE case, which is ludicrous for the scientific method. Of course, that was not reported in western msm. Even if it were, would the average person realise the idiocy?  Is anybody here even aware? 

 

[frankfurter + 562]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Much of the early growth and sources of misinformation likely come from the disconnect between local leaders and the central party leadership.  We've watched as the central government has completed two 1,000+ bed hospitals in two weeks to manage the outbreak - there is huge capability there.  The upward reporting, however, leaves a lot to be desired.

Max Fisher has a really good story about this disconnect:

 

You are entitled to your opinions. But as you finger China, you should also finger Trump for his lies about the damage and injuries sustained upon the Iran retaliation strikes. Trump stated on national TV no damage, yet weeks later he admits damage.  

and, what has steel to do with a virus?

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

1 minute ago, frankfurter said:

You are entitled to your opinions. But as you finger China, you should also finger Trump for his lies about the damage and injuries sustained upon the Iran retaliation strikes. Trump stated on national TV no damage, yet weeks later he admits damage.  

and, what has steel to do with a virus?

I'm not maligning China.  I'm pointing out that there is a systemic disconnect between the local and central governments that must be addressed.  When the central government acts, it acts with more ability and conviction than any force on earth - see the two huge hospitals built in two weeks.  It was unable to act quickly because it has created dis-incentives to reporting upward.

I'm not sure what Trump has to do with a virus...

[frankfurter + 562]

6 hours ago, 0R0 said:

First of all, it is the CCP that outright stated its intentions to be an existential threat to the US as in an oft quoted speech on this thread. 

I have no doubt that China has made enormous strides in technology and leads in some areas by quite a margin. I am certain that had they cared more about safety than reaching CCP bioweapons goals, then it would not have been a problem. But they don't.

While it might have been a convenient time for the US to do this kind of attack, the location and staffing of the Wuhan Level 4 "Biosecurity" Lab and the constant line of publications that establish both (1) the bat virus survey not having the ability to attach to human protein receptors and (2) that they showed by recombinant modification that it could happen in nature, but most definitely did in the lab just across the Yangtze from Wuhan's market, it is far more likely to have been an accidental release. Much more so if it is indeed true that the Wuhan coronavirus RNA has sequences unique to HIV, which is perhaps why this non-retrovirus responds to HIV drug cocktails. .

Please show proof of your claim: the CCP that outright stated its intentions to be an existential threat to the US. 

You assume this virus was lab-made-in-China. Other than your bigotry, what leads you to this assumption?  

If true this is lab-made and released accidentally, heads will roll, quite literally. 

 

[GunnysGhost + 157]

9 hours ago, frankfurter said:

such a freaking idiot.  you ever hear the phrase, when in Rome..?  why would I go to Pakistan and act contemptibly against their religion and customs?  by your admission, only a 'murcan would do this. 

 

You lecture 'Muricans on what it is to be 'vile' then defend the practices of 'culture' and 'religion', which by YOUR admission makes it acceptable to throw gays off of buildings and enslave women.

Anyone with any sense can see you're being the idiot / baby here.  You live in a nonsensical bubble.

 

[frankfurter + 562]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I'm not maligning China.  I'm pointing out that there is a systemic disconnect between the local and central governments that must be addressed.  When the central government acts, it acts with more ability and conviction than any force on earth - see the two huge hospitals built in two weeks.  It was unable to act quickly because it has created dis-incentives to reporting upward.

I'm not sure what Trump has to do with a virus...

Obviously, you know nothing about China.  Disincentives?  Are you familiar with the mercury water at Flint, USA?  Did not the responsible parties have an incentive to cover-up? Would this not be a disincentive?  Flint is but one of hundreds of cases of cover-ups in the USA.  uh, double standards?  

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

1 minute ago, frankfurter said:

Obviously, you know nothing about China.  Disincentives?  Are you familiar with the mercury water at Flint, USA?  Did not the responsible parties have an incentive to cover-up? Would this not be a disincentive?  Flint is but one of hundreds of cases of cover-ups in the USA.  uh, double standards?  

First off, I'm not American.  I realise that you want to curb conspiracy theories, but you are taking out friendlies with your random fire.  A day off social media might be good for your state of mind.

[GunnysGhost + 157]

9 hours ago, frankfurter said:

the bigotry here is beyond astounding.  journalists arrested?  where, when?  the hospitals are over-run, so only the most critical cases can be accepted. would YOUR hospital admit you for a common cold?  even if so, would YOU want to pay for for over -subscribed and -utilised treatment?  etc, etc. 

Accusing the Chinese Communist Party of wrongdoing is now 'bigotry'?   C'mon, even you have to know this is a foolish claim.

If you wanted sources, why didn't you start with that instead of throwing a temper tantrum?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hFNOiCOLJ0

 

The simple fact of the matter is that you are wrong.  The CCP is wrong.  The CCP is stupid.  Communism is stupid.  Move on.

[frankfurter + 562]

2 minutes ago, GunnysGhost said:

 

You lecture 'Muricans on what it is to be 'vile' then defend the practices of 'culture' and 'religion', which by YOUR admission makes it acceptable to throw gays off of buildings and enslave women.

Anyone with any sense can see you're being the idiot / baby here.  You live in a nonsensical bubble.

 

Excellent. The place for you is Saudi Arabia.  Actions speak louder than words. So, I await the news of your trip to lecture the Saudis on human rights for gays, lesbians, sodomites, and more.  

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 hours ago, Hotone said:

That may have been the case even up to the 90's, but Chinese science and facilities are quite advanced now.  I first went to Shanghai in 1994 for a few days, when I was working for an American technology company, to conduct a seminar.  I wasn't very experienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backwards at the time.

Today, I would say that the technology in my field is implemented in a different manner by the Chinese, which may be considered on par or even more advanced compared to American technology. 

If this virus is man-made, then this outbreak has all the hallmarks of an American operation.  The US has used the same modus operandi to bring down foreign governments including Libya and Syria...  Precede with incessant propaganda to create negative views, attack the economy and it's leading companies, launch covert action, spread full scale of misinformation and fear to turn the population against its government.  The US has designated the CCP as an existential threat and the stated aim of some is to bring down its leader, Xi Jin Peng.

You are really reaching for a conspiracy here. Try utilizing Occam’s Razor as it applies to known facts.

[GunnysGhost + 157]

10 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Excellent. The place for you is Saudi Arabia.  Actions speak louder than words. So, I await the news of your trip to lecture the Saudis on human rights for gays, lesbians, sodomites, and more.  

And there's the flip.  You go from defending a vile culture, realize you've been caught out, then you copy my argument near-verbatim and claim it as your own. 

It's sad that you wouldn't realize reading back through this that you've embarrassed yourself.  But I don't think you're that sharp.

Edited February 5, 2020 by GunnysGhost

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

10 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

First off, I'm not American.  I realise that you want to curb conspiracy theories, but you are taking out friendlies with your random fire.  A day off social media might be good for your state of mind.

So, in an effort to deflect any blame from the Chinese government, you point to supposed cover ups in the US.

This tactic, in no way, excuses any nefarious behavior by the Chinese government.

Note that I am NOT accusing the Chinese government of anything, I am simply pointing out that your tactic of comparing the shortcoming of others is childish and in no way ‘furthers your cause’.

[GunnysGhost + 157]

14 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So, in an effort to deflect any blame from the Chinese government, you point to supposed cover ups in the US.

This tactic, in no way, excuses any nefarious behavior by the Chinese government.

Note that I am NOT accusing the Chinese government of anything, I am simply pointing out that your tactic of comparing the shortcoming of others is childish and in no way ‘furthers your cause’.

Frankfurter has enthusiastically taken on the role of Forum Troll. 

The individual arguments Frunkfarter is making are not really relevant.  We can reduce Frankfurter to a predictable stereotype based on their own comments:

- in a forum about a Chinese outbreak, this became 'the vile United State's fault'

- The Chinese Communist Party is excellent in all instances, free of all blame

- Criticizing the Communist Party is 'bigotry'. 

🤣

You are all wrong to criticize the CCP you bigots! 

All Frankfurters arguments will become circular and end up here. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by GunnysGhost

[frankfurter + 562]

4 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You are really reaching for a conspiracy here. Try utilizing Occam’s Razor as it applies to known facts.

valid point.

the fact is nobody yet knows how and where this virus originates. or, if somebody knows, s/he aint talking.  there is too much hysteria.  extraordinary measures are in progress, with realistic expectations this will be contained and eliminated in due course.

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So, in an effort to deflect any blame from the Chinese government, you point to supposed cover ups in the US.

This tactic, in no way, excuses any nefarious behavior by the Chinese government.

Note that I am NOT accusing the Chinese government of anything, I am simply pointing out that your tactic of comparing the shortcoming of others is childish and in no way ‘furthers your cause’.

I assume that you were meaning to quote frankfurter, as I never pointed to overups in the US.  I simply stated that there were systemic problems with communication within the Chinese government hierarchy.