Why Trump Is Right to Re-Open the Economy

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 minute ago, 0R0 said:

BS

The highest value input is judgment. Experienced decision makers are valuable.

Often an overlooked value. You don’t hire old gits like me to sling tongs on the drill floor (although I might still be good for one or two more trips out of the hole...🤔), you hire use old farts because we’ve ‘been there, done that’ and might be able to prevent the young guys/gals from making mistakes we’ve lived through, either engineering-wise or operationally.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

32 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I keep hearing this incessant whining concerning the supply of ventilators and the constant demand to be supplied with more.

I get it, more ventilators are needed, but at the moment, it is what it is. There are presently X amount of ventilators available in each country. No country is going to give ventilators to any other country until they are SURE that they do not need them themselves.

In the US, each State has so many ventilators available. They will hold these for their own use. The politicians in New York were unprepared and stuck their heads in the sand until they were behind the virus curve and now feel that they should be entitled to the resources of others.

Until GM and others retool and get production going, we’ll have to work with what we have!

Has any other country mandated that their industries retool and start manufacturing ventilators? I’m curious.

UK has, Dyson who make vaccume cleaners (don't you bloody dare laugh) and Rolls Royce I believe but they will only be for royalty.

Trump pulled a blinder yesterday when questioned whether the US would need so many after he had said he didn't think they'd need so many. He basically said that if the US had too many they would send them to their friends. After China has been trying to capitalise politically by sending medical equipment to Europe this is a huge blow to them (China), especially as a lot of their equipment was found to the faulty on arrival!

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, 0R0 said:

BS

The highest value input is judgment. Experienced decision makers are valuable.

Buffet made most of his decisions a long time ago - he lis egendary for holding stock forever.

Now he mostly makes money from money.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Enthalpic

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

6 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

BS

The highest value input is judgment. Experienced decision makers are valuable.

Still not a product.  Weather we like it or not, wealth is directly tied to productivity(production of product for consumption).  Now judgement etc is required and so is financing, but both of those are not production. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

4 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

UK has, Dyson who make vaccume cleaners (don't you bloody dare laugh) and Rolls Royce I believe but they will only be for royalty.

Trump pulled a blinder yesterday when questioned whether the US would need so many after he had said he didn't think they'd need so many. He basically said that if the US had too many they would send them to their friends. After China has been trying to capitalise politically by sending medical equipment to Europe this is a huge blow to them (China), especially as a lot of their equipment was found to the faulty on arrival!

Okay, I won’t laugh...out loud!😂

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

48 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Does Warren Buffet produce a product?  No.  So, does he create wealth(production), NO.  He provides a service at best which helps with one hand and feeds upon those who PRODUCE wealth. Parasite?  Partially.  Produce wealth? Mostly no. 

Does he produce jobs? Not directly perhaps but due to his wealth?

[0R0 + 6,251]

26 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Still not a product.  Weather we like it or not, wealth is directly tied to productivity(production of product for consumption).  Now judgement etc is required and so is financing, but both of those are not production. 

The margin of the supply chain is derived fro myriad decisions leading to a product of particular design and materials on the shelf or at your door. These decisions make the value. Otherwise you are China and produce employment rather than return on investment and margin on revenue. You have it upside down.  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

21 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Does he produce jobs? Not directly perhaps but due to his wealth?

Yes, you can produce LOTS of jobs, but those jobs are ultimately tied to production for consumption.  Being in the service side(very very small) in the oil business I am a parasite on the production of oil/ng.  True, the parasitic relationship is symbiotic, but when total number of parasites decrease but production stays the same, we call this productivity and even have index's for the tabulation of this. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

3 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The margin of the supply chain is derived fro myriad decisions leading to a product of particular design and materials on the shelf or at your door. These decisions make the value. Otherwise you are China and produce employment rather than return on investment and margin on revenue. You have it upside down.  

You just used bait an switch in your argument.  Person making those decisions IS IN PRODUCTION.  Buffet, topic of discussion, DOES NOT make these decisions.  He works in the services; mostly financial, with a small helping of business services.  😎

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 minute ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

You just used bait an switch in your argument.  Person making those decisions IS IN PRODUCTION.  Buffet, topic of discussion, DOES NOT make these decisions.  He works in the services; mostly financial, with a small helping of business services.  😎

His main job is picking and maintaining the bench of his portfolio companies,most of which he owns outright. He is active in that role. It is like GE after Jack Welch retired to go on consulting for another 15 years, leaving Immelt to melt down the company just so he can get from under SIFI to buy Baker Hughes and Siemens turbines at the top of the market.. Or Bill Gates and the slow grind of Microsoft into the ground by Balmer that followed his retirement. The executive suite doesn't cost so much because they are useless - though plenty of them are. 

This is not a bait and switch. As you go up the chain you make more substantial decisions - decisions about who makes decisions down the structure from you. And how they make them.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

49 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Still not a product.  Weather we like it or not, wealth is directly tied to productivity(production of product for consumption).  Now judgement etc is required and so is financing, but both of those are not production. 

But both INFLUENCE production greatly.

[Marcin2 + 726]

7 hours ago, George8944 said:

Before I assume it, where are you pulling this from?  Since this forms the foundation of your point, I would like to see some support.   Also, define economic value.  Right now people over 65 hold 83% of the nations wealth.  

 

Individual economic value from the point of national economy: how much net output you create from presence till the end of your life without the profits from your wealth ( could be inherited and work for other citizens in the same economy).

Most of people over 65 retire and get pension or live off their savings. Apart from normal consumption they use a lot of healthcare. On average people use more healthcare during terminal 12 months of their life than all their previous lifespan.

That is why they have negative economic value.

It is a simple but viable statistical approximation of certain epidemic scenario.

I mentioned it only because i do not like hypocrisy.

And Old guy Trump is 74 and he wants your parents and grandparents to die for the sake of US economy, while being personally safe due to his wealth and political position.

Current approach of US government is also very characteristic for US type of oligarchy that is plutocracy.

Wealthier old people will survive and more poor will die.

This is why US is No longer democracy and at best failed democracy.

 

[Marcin2 + 726]

From the simplistic point of national economy it is best to not have any quarantine and for all people to catch the virus and mainly old people to die.

But Fortunately for all of us the last time this types of selection who deserves to live and who deserves to die were made by state was in Nazi Germany only unlucky ones were Jews and not old people.

Later nobody dared to bring this concept back.

On human level most of people prefer to be unemployed for 6 months if their mother is to survive.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

40 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Individual economic value from the point of national economy: how much net output you create from presence till the end of your life without the profits from your wealth ( could be inherited and work for other citizens in the same economy).

Most of people over 65 retire and get pension or live off their savings. Apart from normal consumption they use a lot of healthcare. On average people use more healthcare during terminal 12 months of their life than all their previous lifespan.

That is why they have negative economic value.

It is a simple but viable statistical approximation of certain epidemic scenario.

I mentioned it only because i do not like hypocrisy.

And Old guy Trump is 74 and he wants your parents and grandparents to die for the sake of US economy, while being personally safe due to his wealth and political position.

Current approach of US government is also very characteristic for US type of oligarchy that is plutocracy.

Wealthier old people will survive and more poor will die.

This is why US is No longer democracy and at best failed democracy.

 

+1

You could "put those words in my mouth" and I wouldn't complain.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

Trump's narcissism has taken a new twist. And now he has American blood on his hands

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/27/trump-narcissism-american-blood-coronavirus

The US president has been exposed by the coronavirus crisis. The only small comfort for the rest of the world is that he’s not their leader

Pity the people of America. They do battle now with one of the greatest challenges in their history, led by a man who is not only among the worst ever occupants of the White House but whose character makes him the last person on the face of the Earth you would nominate to be in charge at this moment. On Thursday the US reached the top of the global league table for coronavirus infections, edging ahead of its closest rival for that honour, China. No law of nature dictated that outcome. Much of it is directly attributable to one dreadful fact: that Donald Trump is president of the United States.

------------------------------

Trump and his outriders contend that, while mass death is not ideal, it’s better than allowing the US economy to stall. Some, like Texas lieutenant governor Dan Patrick, are explicit, urging the elderly to risk their lives so that their grandchildren might enjoy the fruits of uninterrupted American capitalism. “If that’s the exchange, I’m all in,” Patrick said. He was taking his cue from Trump who, while not putting it quite as baldly, has been quite clear. If coronavirus is a stick-up artist asking America, “Your money or your life”, Trump’s response has been: “Take the lives of the old and the weak: I want the money.”

Edited March 29, 2020 by Yoshiro Kamamura

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

43 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

On human level most of people prefer to be unemployed for 6 months if their mother is to survive.

I've ordered my mom to stay at a farm with a garden.

"If you run out of food kill one of the cows before going to town."

They have about 80 cow-calf pairs so 160 pieces of meat-machines in my mind.

Certainly she grew and canned loads of stuff.  The only thing I take when she offers is carrot marmalade and homemade pickles. I will miss her.  Please social distance.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Enthalpic

[REAL Green + 65]

This contagion is organic but just as dangerous is the systematic side.  One is a near term quickly propagating illness killing and sowing fear.  The other is a very real and lasting damage to the organs of economic activity.  This is not a normal economic shock.  It is also a shock that came along with the baggage of a period of economic dislocation of a decade of central bank intervention with debt growth and repressed rates.  This shock and that peaking of central bank dislocation is now upon us at the same time the health issues continue. 

 

We have those who do not understand economics claiming health care takes precedence.  I agree drastic actions are called for but there must be an honesty for the consequences and then honest debate.  This is a catch 22 of options with longer term negative health consequences resulting with people disenfranchised from support networks.  Exposure kills too and this exposure will be systematic.  This again comes down to triage but not related to ventilators but economic support longer term.  The balancing of this situation means economic activity must return soon or the consequences will likely be felt harshly longer term.  It is possible we will never return to the activity of 2019 levels. 

 

It is not yet known if there is a silver lining to this drop.  In some ways a cleansing recession is necessary but was delayed.  A reset to something too painful to entertain just months ago.  Years of economic inconsistencies of malinvestment and moral hazard have built up.  A recession will begin to clean this up.  The world might be stronger will less globalism and more local economic activity.  Do we really need all the consumerism and modern leisure?  There are many things that can be mopped up and dumped down the drain and we will be a better people. 

 

Yet, first we must plan on exiting this crisis that is economic and organic.  Likely there will be a new reality in both spheres.  There might be a new respect for borders.  We not only have this human virus but also animal viruses.  This indicates at the level of the organics of globalism we are exposed to dangerous risk from interconnectivity indicating an improper scale has become a common sense reality.  The economic contagion of disrupted supply chains and financial contagions indicate maybe globalism interconnectivity has gone too far here too.  It is uncertain if we can disentangle ourselves without causing great economic pain.  It should be clear many things and networks will not be possible without robust globalism so real abandonment is ahead if globalism is throttled down. 

 

It may be the case the world can take steps to localize and reduce exposure but it has to get back to work to find out.  The modern global economy is complex with complicated networks and systems.  The longer it is down the more risk of part or all of it not rebooting.  We do not have the luxury of saving everyone in health and business.  This needs to be about lifeboats and hospices not “failure is not an option” and “nobody is left behind”.  That world is no longer possible.  The way forward is not clear but what is clear is this is a trap that is compounded by a world of many problems that cannot be left unmitigated.  Entropic decay does not sleep.  The immediate course of action might need to be a triage of steps that are hybrid economic and health.  It should be understood this means taking steps that will open doors that will not be gone back through.  This will be about going through doors with unknowns but remaining is not an option.  Death is upon us both organic and economic so this calls for acceptance.  It is only through acceptance that we can go forth in real efforts with a morale needed to achieve some kind of security that offers hope and confidence.  That represents true liquidity and the absence collapse.

 

This virus has been a great equalizer and catalyst.  It might be what was needed to bring about a change that is called for.  A new level of stability for a system that has been extended too far into a brittle resilience and unsustainability.   A threshold has broken offering a forced pathway of succession to something possibly less risk prone if we survive.  In any case the journey will be painful in uncharted waters but a journey that is global for everyone.  No one can afford to damage the lifeboat thinking they can gain an edge with everyone so exposed to collapse.  Maybe this will draw the world closer to a common goal or it may be our end with a dramatically new world waiting somewhere way down below.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Trump's narcissism has taken a new twist. And now he has American blood on his hands

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/27/trump-narcissism-american-blood-coronavirus

The US president has been exposed by the coronavirus crisis. The only small comfort for the rest of the world is that he’s not their leader

Pity the people of America. They do battle now with one of the greatest challenges in their history, led by a man who is not only among the worst ever occupants of the White House but whose character makes him the last person on the face of the Earth you would nominate to be in charge at this moment. On Thursday the US reached the top of the global league table for coronavirus infections, edging ahead of its closest rival for that honour, China. No law of nature dictated that outcome. Much of it is directly attributable to one dreadful fact: that Donald Trump is president of the United States.

------------------------------

Trump and his outriders contend that, while mass death is not ideal, it’s better than allowing the US economy to stall. Some, like Texas lieutenant governor Dan Patrick, are explicit, urging the elderly to risk their lives so that their grandchildren might enjoy the fruits of uninterrupted American capitalism. “If that’s the exchange, I’m all in,” Patrick said. He was taking his cue from Trump who, while not putting it quite as baldly, has been quite clear. If coronavirus is a stick-up artist asking America, “Your money or your life”, Trump’s response has been: “Take the lives of the old and the weak: I want the money.”

The shutdown is costing about $2 Trillion a month. That is the lifetime income of 740,000 people. So you are going to save old folks (average age of CV19 death is 80) by destroying the lives of 740000 people a month. That is something that the vast majority of the high risk group would gladly die for. I am sure many octogenarians would volunteer to get the virus deliberately so that nobody has to worry about them getting it any more. Whether it is 10k who would die or 100k, you don't shut down the lives of 320 million people for that. You can do it to allow the folks that have the disease to get through it, but only for a short period. A month is enough to slow the spread. In NYC, NJ and CA and MI states, the infection rates are 30% to over 40% in the big cities. Who is left to protect there?

If they had the brains, they would have put the big cities on lockdown BEFORE people started showing up at the hospitals. Once they are there in the 100s then you missed the boat because the virus propagates so rapidly.

The tradeoff is insane. 

The Guardian is a pink socialist rag and cares nothing for economic consequences. FYI socialist is an epithet. In case you didn't know.

[0R0 + 6,251]

44 minutes ago, REAL Green said:

Yet, first we must plan on exiting this crisis that is economic and organic.  Likely there will be a new reality in both spheres.  There might be a new respect for borders.  We not only have this human virus but also animal viruses.  This indicates at the level of the organics of globalism we are exposed to dangerous risk from interconnectivity indicating an improper scale has become a common sense reality.  The economic contagion of disrupted supply chains and financial contagions indicate maybe globalism interconnectivity has gone too far here too.  It is uncertain if we can disentangle ourselves without causing great economic pain.  It should be clear many things and networks will not be possible without robust globalism so real abandonment is ahead if globalism is throttled down. 

 

Great way of putting it.

I think the global supply chains will be collapsed into regional ones - particularly for critical parts and materials and equipment. The disruption is  the duplication of China's entire strategic sole source production. Lots of investment to do. China will remain isolated because it has no herd immunity to the virus. Europe and the US will have herd immunity and will continue to have breakouts indefinitely. Till a vaccine is developed. Fortunately, China's extensive experimentation allowed us a path to treatments that are all over the spectrum. From cheap and non specific to specific and expensive to very expensive.  

One of the stupid ideas is the post facto quarantine. Yes it can save lives, but the only thing it does is perpetuate the problem. The unexposed population remains vulnerable and there will be a next outbreak of the same virus. The economic damage is horrendous, and the panic is outrageous, particularly among the government officials and the bureaucracy that clings to its extortionate practices that literally kill people. France and Italy FORBADE treatment of the Wuhan Coronavirus with HCQ/Z and the HIV antiviral cocktail. When it became public, they caved and both allowed it and covered it in their health insurance. 

We have revealed more than just fragility of the supply chain, but that China has been deliberately acting to make it so. And that it is a malicious actor conducting apparent business for the purpose of political and economic extortion. 

The virus is much more likely a human engineered product with clear insertions of HIV sequences into a bat SARS virus. The wet market is simply where biohazard dead bats went to because there was a market for them for traditional bat soup so they were likely stolen from the disposal from the Wuhan Biosafety Lab on the way to the medical waste incinerators. The combination of particular viral sequences is too unlikely because HIV is not that common in animals in China. There is a feline HIV in cats in China, but the most likely reason that was there was genetic engineering since HIV is used as a vector to insert genetic sequences into RNA so its multiplicity of sequences in the CV19 virus is an indication of it being NOT organic. . 

 

[James Regan + 1,776]

imagine that...... Even a century ago they had the sense to promote these guidelines. I guess by the Lodge they are referring to the brotherhood.

Edited March 29, 2020 by James Regan

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:51 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

That said, I’m at about 80% on the painting of my flat...😂

 

On 3/27/2020 at 9:08 AM, Rob Plant said:

At least you can watch your paint dry!🤣

 

[Kirk + 12]

If you want to avoid a second wave & longer or double dip recession, the entire U.S. should be under travel restrictions and stay at home orders except for essentials for 30 days. We should have started 2 weeks ago. Longer we put this off, the longer this recession lasts, oh, and more people die, but I know some of you don’t care about that.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 3/26/2020 at 8:24 PM, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Cuomo: No expert supported Trump's Easter timeline

Okay, take a look chronologically of Cuomo’s action, comments and reactions since the virus was know to have travelled to the US.

Governors, not the President, are the first line authority for crisis management in their States.

Cuomo buried his head in the sand and refused to enact common sense measures in a timely manner. The virus is now out of control in New York City and Cuomo is now doing everything he can to deflect the blame for the situation.

Two questions Yoshiro, are you an American? Do you live in the US?

If not, why do you continue to harp on the situation in America?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 minutes ago, Kirk said:

If you want to avoid a second wave & longer or double dip recession, the entire U.S. should be under travel restrictions and stay at home orders except for essentials for 30 days. We should have started 2 weeks ago. Longer we put this off, the longer this recession lasts, oh, and more people die, but I know some of you don’t care about that.

And you are an expert I suppose. CNN will let you be a ‘talking head’ if you tell them that you are an expert...

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

10 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

 

Mostly out of paint now....finally!