The Blind Leading the Blind

[Valerie Williams + 129]

56 minutes ago, Dg56 said:

Hi Wombat, I have enjoyed some of your insight in earlier posts, but this one...  

100% speculation, 0% factual. 

Sorry. 

Perhaps Wombat would prefer to call it a hypothesis. 😋

... or hypotheses. I think I spotted several.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Valerie Williams

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

On 4/28/2020 at 2:20 PM, Dg56 said:

Now, put your feet where your mouth is. Go to the nearest hot spot, make sure you catch the virus, and immunise yourself (and your family in the meantime). 

Let me know how you are going.

I have not read this thread through.  That said, this is terrible advice.  

The (very preliminary) evidence is that re-infection from a new source of viral load is possible.  Thus, being infected does not confer some kind of "immunity," so forget it!  Unless, of course, you are sanguine about death - yours and your family members that you will infect.   Everybody, stay away from this disease, it is a nasty one. 

OK, possibly Dg56 is saying that tongue-in-cheek.  Hard to tell from the text.  Dg, don't write this stuff on an international forum, please. 

[Valerie Williams + 129]

10 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I have not read this thread through.  That said, this is terrible advice.  

The (very preliminary) evidence is that re-infection from a new source of viral load is possible.  Thus, being infected does not confer some kind of "immunity," so forget it!  Unless, of course, you are sanguine about death - yours and your family members that you will infect.   Everybody, stay away from this disease, it is a nasty one. 

OK, possibly Dg56 is saying that tongue-in-cheek.  Hard to tell from the text.  Dg, don't write this stuff on an international forum, please. 

I agree with this. Joking or not. We don't know enough about this illness. I'm very alert right now to what may develop from the lung abnormality findings. We've seen recently that even asymptomatic cases of exposure present with COVID-19 type lung damage in CT scans.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30086-4/fulltext

And that the lung damage may be irreversible.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-symptoms-covid19-causes-irreversible-lung-damage/news-story/5ec307aeac0203d752135ef3ec152fe6

In the case of dengue fever, some people have mild, or at least, recoverable illness. However, upon the 2nd infection, it is deadly. Likewise COVID-19 could possibly set us up with damaged lungs incapable of surviving the next "COVID season".

And to Wombat, per earlier comments, this is another reason why I'm not so excited about the herd immunity idea.

[Dg56 + 16]

1 hour ago, Valerie Williams said:

I don't disagree. Just maybe don't go 100% devil-may-care. I think the economy is the biggest threat right now.

To help resolving cultural divides. 

Wombat lives in a country where there is still a social cohesion factor (good Australian medicare for all, like the UK NHS). People's lives matter. 

Valerie lives in a country where you are pretty much on your own. Economy comes first. (If health insurance is locked to employment, no question about it)

When the shit hits the fan and the economy goes down, the stress level is just not the same. 

All the best to you all, whatever country/system you live in. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:23 PM, D Coyne said:

There are not enough ventilators, so there is that problem.

There is not enough of anything.  All together, it is a huge problem. 

And you can forget the idea of "herd immunity,"  not going to happen with this disease.   It is a bit analogous to tghe genie in the bottle: once let out, you cannot put it back in.  The world has now unleshed a really nasty disease, which is going to keep coming back and keep killing its hosts, and keep infecting more and more people.  This is what happens when ridiculous people start eating pangolins and other ridicuilous wildlife "bush meat."    People, you have to get away from this crap, if you are bound and determined to eat meat, then eat the domesticated stuff:  cattle, pigs, chickens, turkeys, lamb.  Forget about eating monkey-meat you go shoot in the jungle.  That stuff is going to kill you. And stay away from the ridiculous people that insist on doing that!

[Dg56 + 16]

10 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Forget about eating monkey-meat you go shoot in the jungle.  That stuff is going to kill you. And stay away from the ridiculous people that insist on doing that!

Hi All, 

Can anyone make sense of that quote? (the entire exert is above)

I cannot. Please explain. 

With all respect.  

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 hours ago, Valerie Williams said:

And quite apropos of the title of this thread, I think we can all be a bit skeptical these days about the reliability of the work product from the current "intelligentsia" (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/04/arts/academic-journals-hoax.html). ESPECIALLY, when governments as well as the media and academic institutions have lately been displaying a severe propensity toward corruption, propaganda and authoritarianism. Oh, and outright aiding and abetting (https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/harvard-professor-charged-hiding-china-ties-68591184).

 

It is coming from Chinese corruption being exported around the world. If Presidential Candidate Biden is on the payroll then you can take it as fact that so is every international organization and most politicians that don't publicly denigrate the CCP. 

30% of Chinese submitted articles are retracted due to fake data, plagiarism or other malfeasance. Peer reviews are just as likely to create a false dogma as they are to keep the published research to stick to the facts and interpret them within the realm of the possible. 

Chinese cheating on tests and plagiarism in thesis submissions is rampant with up to 80% of students in some universities having admitted to cheating on several or most of their projects and tests. 

I like Michael Beckley's summary

BTW the 1000 lights program turned out to 1. be used by local expats - 70% - i.e. didn't bring in anyone new. 2. Brought in older scientists at the end of their creative phase. 3. Most of those who came were on sabbatical from their main jobs and did not stay beyond the term of the contract. 

[Dg56 + 16]

Hi 0r0, 

I carefully read your post (above), and it doesn't make sense.

Please make your point clearer in about 100 words, please. Tanks.

[0R0 + 6,251]

27 minutes ago, Dg56 said:

Hi 0r0, 

I carefully read your post (above), and it doesn't make sense.

Please make your point clearer in about 100 words, please. Tanks.

The idea is that China has steadily eroded ethical standards in entire areas of academia, International institutions and political parties and bureaucrats globally, primarily through bribery and "commercial" opportunities or contracts. 

They can mobilize more of your government than the public can. They will always have "peers" in a peer review process to skew things in their desired direction.  Facts, data etc. may not matter. 

[Dg56 + 16]

10 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The idea is that China has steadily eroded ethical standards in entire areas of academia, International institutions and political parties and bureaucrats globally, primarily through bribery and "commercial" opportunities or contracts. 

Hi 0r0, 

Thanks for the new post, I get it. 

Is that all you have to say? No facts? No specifics? Just an 'idea' that... What exactly?

Sorry about specifics, they matter to me, and the real world.

Looking forward to hearing from you. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

5 minutes ago, Dg56 said:

Hi 0r0, 

Thanks for the new post, I get it. 

Is that all you have to say? No facts? No specifics? Just an 'idea' that... What exactly?

Sorry about specifics, they matter to me, and the real world.

Looking forward to hearing from you. 

Then go through the prior post. 

If you want to go through the details then go research it. That CCP corruption of the West,  is not my expertise. It takes a brave journalist to publish the details. So you have to go to read about it from non-mainstream sources dispersed everywhere. It is not my area so I just need to know who and in what way are affected by the CCP corruption activity. 

[Valerie Williams + 129]

1 hour ago, 0R0 said:

The idea is that China has steadily eroded ethical standards in entire areas of academia, International institutions and political parties and bureaucrats globally, primarily through bribery and "commercial" opportunities or contracts. 

They can mobilize more of your government than the public can. They will always have "peers" in a peer review process to skew things in their desired direction.  Facts, data etc. may not matter. 

0R0, for a purely anecdotal personal tale. I live in a community that I love. My neighbors are close friends. Lots of green spaces and amenities. Just a lovely place. And into this place several years ago, moved a family from China. A husband and wife, and their two young sons. Their sons were just a few years younger than my child, and they liked to swim, as did my child. They were on the neighborhood swim team together. The father was an engineer at a local company. They didn't talk about why they left China, but they were part of our community and they were our people.

Then one day they were dead. Someone came into their home during the night and shot all four of them in the head while they slept. No one heard anything. This is the kind of place where people don't get murdered. People in this neighborhood will ask all the time about noises, like blown transformers, etc., so it's not as if we don't pay attention or we're too far away or insulated to hear. No, this was a professional hit, by people who know how to leave no trace. And no trace was left. This was about 8 years ago. No one will buy that house. We as a community take care of that empty house and it stands as a reminder to us that we really know - about which we can't actually know - what happened to them.

China is all over us, as they are all over everything, and they are up to no good.

You mentioned Biden. Well, one can only speculate, but Hillary's server - that b**** is not so stupid that she didn't know it was wrong to have such a server - that server existed for a reason. China is probably a big part of that reason. I suspect, strongly, that much of the reason there is so much hysterical resistance to Trump is because he is trying to uncover how deep the China corruption goes. And they are all in on it.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Valerie Williams

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

5 hours ago, Wombat said:

Very unlikely that the most deadly virus in modern history evolved within 12km of a Chinese bio-weapon lab by chance.

Actually, perfectly logical.  You have these people working on "bio-weapons," or viral matter and assorted pathogens designed to wipe entire populations out.  What kind of a sick, emotionally warped person is oging to do that sort of work?  OK, so that is the sicko whose relatives are out shopping at the neighborhood "wet market" for their jungle meat with the miraculous sex powers.  

Sick is as sick does.  So yes, quite logical to have the outbreak right smack there, where the crazies are congregated. Well?

[Valerie Williams + 129]

3 hours ago, Dg56 said:

Valerie lives in a country where you are pretty much on your own. Economy comes first. (If health insurance is locked to employment, no question about it)

My initial response to this might have been a little hot-headed. But that's not how I see my country, so just speak for your own experience and let me speak for mine.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Valerie Williams

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Dg56 said:

Hi All, 

Can anyone make sense of that quote? (the entire exert is above)

I cannot. Please explain. 

With all respect.  

OK, fine, I will put your confusion down to my not being clear in an international forum.  

If you have people who insist on doing bizarre things, such as going out and shooting monkeys in the jungle in order to eat the meat, as some people do in West Africa, then don't be surprised that when you eat that meat then you get infected with the pathogens that are riding along in those bush animals.  That is precisely how Ebola got transmitted to humans: the Ebola virus made the transaition from monkeys (where it is a parastic rider on a host that tolerates it) to humans, where the hosts die rapidly from that rider.  So, don't go doing that (shoting monkeys and eating the meat) or you bring the parasites over to your genus.  

Now you have exactly the same thing with these Chinese eating pangolin meat.  The pangolins are both the native Chinese versions and the much larger African versions.  The pangolins will tolerate the COVID-19 virus and probably quite a bit of other stuff that you really don't want floating about in your body.  So be smart and leave the pangolins alone.  But no, the Chinese in that Wuhan wet market are out there buying and eating (illegally harvested) pangolin meat, for whatever crazy reasons they have dereamed up, and the result is entirely predictable:  whatever those pangolin host, including COVID-19 viral matter, is not going to be so innocent when it jumps to another species, in this case the humans who are dumb enough to go eat that stuff. 

Now: if you want to go:  "Rah! Rah! Applaud the Chinese, they are a brave people,they eat that pangolin meat, hand out the gold stars!", and support that practice, then don't be surprised that whatever is hitching a ride on thse creatures is going to end up in your bloodstream. And, those sweet pangolins are carrying around some seriously nasty viral matter remnants, as the planet has just found out to its chagrin. 

-- The above is the long version of my comment.  NOW is it clear enough?  Let's hope so. 

[Radha + 262]

Jan van Eck

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yesterday at 06:43 AM

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Jan, there was some research done that suggested that this bio weapon in the lab was designed to end the protests in Hong Kong. Whether it was released from the lab by accident or purpose, they achieved their goal of ending the protests. Kind of strange why they would want to damage the world's economy like this, as they are such a big exporter.

 

On 5/2/2020 at 1:31 AM, Wombat said:

Very unlikely that the most deadly virus in modern history evolved within 12km of a Chinese bio-weapon lab by chance.

Actually, perfectly logical.  You have these people working on "bio-weapons," or viral matter and assorted pathogens designed to wipe entire populations out.  What kind of a sick, emotionally warped person is oging to do that sort of work?  OK, so that is the sicko whose relatives are out shopping at the neighborhood "wet market" for their jungle meat with the miraculous sex powers.  

Sick is as sick does.  So yes, quite logical to have the outbreak right smack there, where the crazies are congregated. Well?

[Wombat + 1,028]

8 minutes ago, Radha said:

Jan van Eck

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yesterday at 06:43 AM

•  

Jan, there was some research done that suggested that this bio weapon in the lab was designed to end the protests in Hong Kong. Whether it was released from the lab by accident or purpose, they achieved their goal of ending the protests. Kind of strange why they would want to damage the world's economy like this, as they are such a big exporter.

 

Actually, perfectly logical.  You have these people working on "bio-weapons," or viral matter and assorted pathogens designed to wipe entire populations out.  What kind of a sick, emotionally warped person is oging to do that sort of work?  OK, so that is the sicko whose relatives are out shopping at the neighborhood "wet market" for their jungle meat with the miraculous sex powers.  

Sick is as sick does.  So yes, quite logical to have the outbreak right smack there, where the crazies are congregated. Well?

Not strange at all Radha. Perfectly timed if you ask me. Just as the world was going back into recession due to record debt. If you go thru todays post by ORO, you get a little taste of Chinese situation. There are other posts here in the last 2 weeks about China which you may also find interesting. Sorry I can't name them from memory, quite a bit of reading to get to the relevant bits, but all here on this site. Even a transcript from a Chinese general boasting about how they would use bio-weapons when the time was right! Search and ye shall find

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:43 AM, Valerie Williams said:

Perhaps Wombat would prefer to call it a hypothesis. 😋

... or hypotheses. I think I spotted several.

Do you have a better hypotheses?

[xxchicagobadboyxx + 1]

Regarding the blind leading the blind:

Covid 19 has a hook that allows it to bind the ace2 receptor to gain entry and propagate.  UP regulation of the ace2 receptor or enzymes that stimulate or activate the ace2 receptor is what causes HTN.  You are on an ace inhibitor, which blocks the conversion of ace1 to ace2, so less ace2 is available to bind ac2.  No one has shown that ace inhibitors cause further up regulation ace2 receptors, unlike beta blockers, which do.

You need the ace2 for htn control, but if you choose to stop, you will need something else to maintain htn control, which a doctor can do.  I went with labetalol and hydralazine, and stopped lisinopril.  The fact that you have higher ace receptor and/or ace enzyme activity puts you at higer risk for covid.  Elderly and Blacks have higher ace receptor/ace activity levels, hence htn, and higher risk for covid.  It would be like having a built in accelerant, and having covid come in a light a match.  The resulting cytokine storm, inflammatory response, would drown your lungs, especially if you get pneumonia d/t a now compromised immune response.  Best thing for you is avoid exposure to covid.

Meantime pray for warm weather.  Tell all you know that Hong Kong with 8 M people have less than 1200 cases, and S. Korea with 55M have less than 12,000, both flattened the curve with minimal fuss, and not closing just by tracking and isolating positive cases, something as simole as a corona map on your phone.  Google how South Korea flattened the curve.  We failed in testing, and isolating, and while we barred China travel, allowed thousands of people in from Italy, the Nile cruise travelers, and from Europe, who traveled thru airports, and respective cities.  Then is March, had Mardi Gras, Florida.  All of this with an unseen enemy, that we failed to test and identify quickly, and instead decided in a half hearted manner to try to just isolate every everybody.  People who had it gave to EMS workers, who not knowing they had it, gave to NH patients.  Our reaction was to bar EMS and have them just hand off patients outside the ED in tents.  In Hong Kong and S. Korea, they test the hell out anyone suspected, and meet you with hazmat outfits if they get someone suspected.  For tests, you go into a plastic phone booth, or stay in your car, and they spray off the sidewalk.  No one goes out without masks, or washing of hands. Everywhere you go, they remind you to cover your mouth, stay home if sick, don't touch the face with hands.  All positives are tracked,  Instead of amber alert, you get a covid alert of new positives and where,  Any positive cases, get phones modified with gps device to track prior, and now future location, and you get an interview, regarding who else will need tested.  The wheel was invented and working well regarding covid already.  No need for the USA to try their own square version which is not working well   We failed in so many ways on this.

[specinho + 470]

On 5/2/2020 at 12:43 AM, Dan Warnick said:

I suspect that will be when many of these smaller countries will exit the EU.  Then they can get back to the game of devaluing their currencies every (insert #) years, as their economies used to avail themselves of.

It's free money allocated from EU to the smaller countries in trouble... They, most likely, will stay?

On 5/2/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jan van Eck said:

I have not read this thread through.  That said, this is terrible advice. 

It would be good if doctors test it out themselves to know what it is exactly, including the healing process, vaccine or whatever they have proposed??

According to a discussion on clinical trials done by professionals,  someone mentioned a phrase to be considered i.e. "i hear and i forget. I see and i remember. I do and i understand". It literally means, in order to know how does  salt taste like, doctors who listen to description only will forget; they see the expression of testers and they remember. But, in order to understand, they need to taste it themselves, no?? It's afterall low virulent on healthy doctors........... 

[Valerie Williams + 129]

5 hours ago, Wombat said:

Do you have a better hypotheses?

No, you mistake my meaning, I think. Dg56 called your comments speculation. I fixed it for him. A hypothesis is a reasoned proposal from incomplete evidence, whereas speculation is conjecture without ANY evidence. Not even the most educated scientist is capable of anything further than a hypothesis at the point, because none of us have enough evidence or information to do otherwise.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

On 5/1/2020 at 1:51 PM, Dg56 said:

Hi All, 

Can anyone make sense of that quote? (the entire exert is above)

I cannot. Please explain. 

With all respect.  

I do believe it is called a fundamental thought process. Now if fundamentals are hard to grasp then one needs to slooowww down just smidge and become grounded. Opps and maybe start over.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[specinho + 470]

3 hours ago, xxchicagobadboyxx said:

Covid 19 has a hook that allows it to bind the ace2 receptor to gain entry and propagate.  UP regulation of the ace2 receptor or enzymes that stimulate or activate the ace2 receptor is what causes HTN.  You are on an ace inhibitor, which blocks the conversion of ace1 to ace2, so less ace2 is available to bind ac2.  No one has shown that ace inhibitors cause further up regulation ace2 receptors, unlike beta blockers, which do.

Quote

The angiotensin II receptors, and, are a class of G protein-coupled receptors with angiotensin II as their ligands. They are important in the renin–angiotensin system: they are responsible for the signal transduction of the vasoconstricting stimulus of the main effector hormone, angiotensin II. Wikipedia

 

For people who might have no clue, the quote is a little bit of extra for the knowledge..........

If the up regulation of ace2 receptor you meant refers to a by-reaction when the patient was having fever but feeling cold............. Are they healed after receiving ace2 blocker or inhibitor?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

6 hours ago, Valerie Williams said:

No, you mistake my meaning, I think. Dg56 called your comments speculation. I fixed it for him. A hypothesis is a reasoned proposal from incomplete evidence, whereas speculation is conjecture without ANY evidence. Not even the most educated scientist is capable of anything further than a hypothesis at the point, because none of us have enough evidence or information to do otherwise.

Hi Valerie.  With respect, if you have to spell it out......

[Wombat + 1,028]

14 hours ago, Valerie Williams said:

No, you mistake my meaning, I think. Dg56 called your comments speculation. I fixed it for him. A hypothesis is a reasoned proposal from incomplete evidence, whereas speculation is conjecture without ANY evidence. Not even the most educated scientist is capable of anything further than a hypothesis at the point, because none of us have enough evidence or information to do otherwise.

Ha Ha, as a physicist I know the difference between a law of physics and a theory, or hypothesis. Newton's "law" of gravity should be downgraded to "approximation of gravity', because it is incomplete. Einstein's "theory of gravity" should be called "Einsteins LAW of gravity" by now, but is not! You know why? Because most Physicists too stupid to understand it. Actually, there are two interpretations of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, one that proposes gravity waves, one that doesn't. I am of the camp that does not believe the gravity wave theory. That is because I am one of just 5 physicists left on the planet that actually understand Einstein's law of gravity. U may have heard in the media that Physicists have "detected" gravity waves about 55 times now. This is BS. The "Ice Cube" expt in Antarctica turned out to "detect" nothing but cosmic dust, and all the laser interferometry detections are false positives too. How do I know? Well, just so happens there is a satellite called "Gravity probe B" which is much more sensitive than the lasers (and would detect "rotational" effect of HYPOTHETICAL gravity waves as well), not one detected. Indeed, if a so-called gravity wave had passed the Earth, ALL detectors would pick up the signal at the same time. I can guarantee this will never happen Valerie. The point? Humans are human. They have vested interests. If top physicists can lie to the world for 30 years about the true nature of the most important scientific discovery in history, then how do we expect to get truth on origin of corona-virus? Not having a go at you Valerie, on the contrary, I am providing this information because you alone on this site have the brains to understand it. No point sending this message to DG56