Wind, Solar & Gas in California. How's that working out for you?

[Rob Kramer + 696]

19 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

This has nothing to do with comparing to solar. The comparison to be made is between decentralized microturbines and centralized NGCC at 60% efficient.  If we are going to use natiural gas then we should use the lowest cost solution You complain about me not providing data but you haven't provided even one number to show that decentralized microturbines are lower cost. Please remember that gas grids have costs just like electric grids and they also cause fires. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

If it wasn't a waste of time I would.  I posted the article on the 170B$ expense Ontario is incurring to go green vs a made up cost of using coal at 4.4$B that was made up of 3.4B$ of imaginary health care Bill's that were after the fact found to be from vehicle emissions.  My house has a gas furnace & hot water tank and electric everything else (a micro turbine could do all that and be more than 33% efficient exhaust heat not turning the motor can heat a water tank or be put through a heat exchanger in winter and be as efficient as a furnace 90%). The gas line is from the 70's I've never seen any gas line work outside of new lines for additional housing just built. If your really asking the cheapest fuel and most reliable system imagine a mcf of gasfrom BC to Ontario at 2.30$cad on lines from the 60's . The poles and power line costs alone could pay the costs for micro turbines(not to mention the furnaces and water tanks and electricity turbines we pay for though hydro one).  Half the utility maintenance... ontario has hydro one trucks everywhere tons of workers driving gas cars to work ect ect ect. The answer is there if you want to obsesses on the savings go nuts . BTW I had my hydro out this week also. They came repaired it . An hour later the 3 transformers were on fire and burned the pole and power was out a day. I'd post the video I have of the transformers on fire then exploding but i dont know how. Just saying I've NEVER had my gas go out . 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Except that sunshine is free and natural gas is not. Just a slight difference. Meanwhile you are avoiding providing any evidence that decentralized microturbines are less expensive than centralized NGCC.

Natural gas is, at present, virtually free for the cost of transportation. Turbines create the electricity that electric cars will use. Mass production is needed to bring the cost down just as for computers. When combined with waste heat being utilized for home heating they are incredibly effective. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

2 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Natural gas is, at present, virtually free for the cost of transportation. Turbines create the electricity that electric cars will use. Mass production is needed to bring the cost down just as for computers. When combined with waste heat being utilized for home heating they are incredibly effective. 

Still no numbers. Natural gas will be back over $3 in a couple months.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

7 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Natural gas is, at present, virtually free for the cost of transportation. Turbines create the electricity that electric cars will use. Mass production is needed to bring the cost down just as for computers. When combined with waste heat being utilized for home heating they are incredibly effective. 

I cant explain it any more . They make up their own truth (the definition of a lie?) . All yours Ron . 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

9 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Still no numbers. Natural gas will be back over $3 in a couple months.

Even at 3.50 -4$ if the byproduct of heating my home is its electricity and hot water I'm laughing.  My pilot lit gas 40G water tank ( the most inefficient type) was 5.50$ in gas charges for the month I have 2 kids I bathe 2 times a day plus my shower and my wife's hygiene plus clothes and dishes.... if the byproduct is my electricity we'd be laughing.  At 4.60 that's 11$ in gas . Even make the hydro the fuel use and heat the byproduct 22$?!.... get real man.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Except that sunshine is free and natural gas is not. Just a slight difference. Meanwhile you are avoiding providing any evidence that decentralized microturbines are less expensive than centralized NGCC.

Virtually everyone in the United States has natural gas available in their own home. No power lines need be built or buried. Natural gas is superabundant and will remain so for hundreds of years. Solar panels are an eyesore IMO. Wind turbines are also. 

I never said they were less expensive than centralized turbines. They do offer far more energy redundancy than any other system that I know of. No more mass outages. I have never heard of a natural gas outage. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Another way to use natural gas in distributed energy systems is with fuel cells. Here is a good article on their use in Los Angeles.  

https://www.powermag.com/press-releases/socalgas-now-powering-two-los-angeles-facilities-with-bloom-energy-alwayson-microgrids/

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

36 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Grid? There is no new grid! 

San Bruno was a a case of gross negligence, old equipment, combined with an earthquake in a dense city. Fire has done far worse in San Francisco and Chicago etc. 

 

No new grid?!? Less than 60% of US houses have natural gas. How do you propose getting that gas to those other 40% without a massive extension of the gas grid?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

23 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Virtually everyone in the United States has natural gas available in their own home. No power lines need be built or buried. Natural gas is superabundant and will remain so for hundreds of years. Solar panels are an eyesore IMO. Wind turbines are also. 

I never said they were less expensive than centralized turbines. They do offer far more energy redundancy than any other system that I know of. No more mass outages. I have never heard of a natural gas outage. 

Not according to natural gas .org 

Natural gas is one of the most popular fuels for residential heating. According to the American Gas Association, 62 million homes in the U.S are heated using natural gas. As of 2009 this number represented about 56 percent of households in the United States.  http://naturalgas.org/overview/uses-residential/#:~:text=Natural gas is one of the most popular fuels for,households in the United States.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No new grid?!? Less than 60% of US houses have natural gas. How do you propose getting that gas to those other 40% without a massive extension of the gas grid?

Propane will do the job, so will compressed natural gas (CNG). For cities (LNG). 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

7 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Propane will do the job, so will compressed natural gas (CNG). For cities (LNG). 

So 40% of the population would have to pay for high delivery costs and also will need to add onsite gas storage.  You sure like expensive solutions. oh and CNG / LNG are even more expensive than piped gas of course.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[ronwagn + 6,290]

5 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Not according to natural gas .org 

Natural gas is one of the most popular fuels for residential heating. According to the American Gas Association, 62 million homes in the U.S are heated using natural gas. As of 2009 this number represented about 56 percent of households in the United States.  http://naturalgas.org/overview/uses-residential/#:~:text=Natural gas is one of the most popular fuels for,households in the United States.

Areas with cold winters rely more on natural gas for home heating. Other areas get it in the form of electricity just as electric vehicles will. Natural gas is not expendable. Renewables cannot and will not replace it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/10/25/natural-gas-and-renewables-will-rule-americas-electricity-future/#3c8f68d31e36

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

4 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

So 40% of the population would have to pay for high delivery costs and also will need to add onsite gas storage.  You sure like expensive solutions. oh and CNG / LNG are even more expensive than piped gas of course.

There is a choice between electricity created by natural gas or by renewables. Either can be delivered by power lines if that is the preferred choice. You advocate the more expensive choice. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

7 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Areas with cold winters rely more on natural gas for home heating. Other areas get it in the form of electricity just as electric vehicles will. Natural gas is not expendable. Renewables cannot and will not replace it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/10/25/natural-gas-and-renewables-will-rule-americas-electricity-future/#3c8f68d31e36

 

From the linked article: As much as wind and solar are increasing, natural gas is increasing more. And gas will continue to grow faster than all other energy sources in the United States for some time.

That claim is already false: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42495

New electric generating capacity in 2020 will come primarily from wind and solar

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

From the linked article: As much as wind and solar are increasing, natural gas is increasing more. And gas will continue to grow faster than all other energy sources in the United States for some time.

That claim is already false: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42495

New electric generating capacity in 2020 will come primarily from wind and solar

Because of Green extremism energy costs will go through the roof for residential customers. I am against that, you do not care. I am for the end consumer. 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/08/19/like-the-california-blackouts-then-youll-love-president-joe-biden/

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Just now, ronwagn said:

Because of Green extremism energy costs will go through the roof for residential customers. I am against that, you do not care. I am for the end consumer. 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/08/19/like-the-california-blackouts-then-youll-love-president-joe-biden/

You do like to change the topic every time I show you are wrong. And how about some original research instead of relying on right wing propaganda articles? Have you ever taken a class in economics?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You do like to change the topic every time I show you are wrong. And how about some original research instead of relying on right wing propaganda articles? Have you ever taken a class in economics?

You keep repeating the same Green narrative while the entire renewable energy sector is eleven percent worldwide. It has raised prices for many people and we need to avoid over subsidizing it. Your economics is based on your own Green wishes. Mine is based on the cost to consumers. 

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1345

My topic on economics https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ds-uwrUzDf-fRABX-pwsBbdpoBX0AmlBK76RZyY3EeQ/edit

Edited August 19, 2020 by ronwagn
added reference

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

You keep repeating the same Green narrative while the entire renewable energy sector is eleven percent worldwide. It has raised prices for many people and we need to avoid over subsidizing it. Your economics is based on your own Green wishes. Mine is based on the cost to consumers. 

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth104/node/1345

My topic on economics https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ds-uwrUzDf-fRABX-pwsBbdpoBX0AmlBK76RZyY3EeQ/edit

*bangs_head_on_table*  Good grief Ron, that graph is 10 years old. Your topic on economics is just a bunch of rants and memes with no research

The Green narrative is that renewable are growing very fast and this year are now growing faster than natural gas, as shown by actual current data (I know that is a foreign concept to you and your crew). Try some modern data: https://www.iea.org/reports/world-energy-balances-overview

[NickW + 2,714]

4 hours ago, Rob Kramer said:

If you look at total price of manufacturing the micro turbine its energy output , reliability,  cost of fuel, how clean the fuel is, youd find they are far more efficient than any green source of power. If I told you solar is 23% efficient during 6 hours of a 24 hour day therefore 6% efficient are you going to tell me a 33% efficiency 24/7 micro turbine is in efficient? 

Mabey I'll post a chart of 8%-23% panels. Lol

How does the cost of sunlight compare to a kwh of gas. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

43 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

*bangs_head_on_table*  Good grief Ron, that graph is 10 years old. Your topic on economics is just a bunch of rants and memes with no research

The Green narrative is that renewable are growing very fast and this year are now growing faster than natural gas, as shown by actual current data (I know that is a foreign concept to you and your crew). Try some modern data: https://www.iea.org/reports/world-energy-balances-overview

You should write an essay on how to mislead people with graphs.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Just now, ronwagn said:

You should write an essay on how to mislead people with graphs.

says the guy that tried to mislead by presenting a 10 year old graph

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

says the guy that tried to mislead by presenting a 10 year old graph

Says the guy who has to go back to the seventies to start his graph on the growth of renewables. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Just now, ronwagn said:

Says the guy who has to go back to the seventies to start his graph on the growth of renewables. 

I assumed you were capable of looking at the clearly indicated 2010 date and going forward from there. 2010 being the date of your old data.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

11 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Says the guy who has to go back to the seventies to start his graph on the growth of renewables. 

I made it easier for you:

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well it is the mindset that brought you all the cool computing power that you are using to participate in this forum. 

Humor aside, computing power did not cause my calculator to stop working from time to time while it was being developed.  My telephone kept working just fine and all media kept chugging along.  As time went by and the benefits of computing became proven we were able to switch over, and what a phenomenal success the entire affair has turned out to be.

Similarly, nobody is arguing that wind and solar are not worth exploring, developing and using in any way possible; it is the mismanagement of its implementation that makes people pay extra and even suffer that is in question.  That together with the mismanagement is a higher cost that is passed on to the consumer without their consent that is in question.  That a proven energy source was displaced and allowed or forced to be removed BEFORE the wind and solar, and battery, development was ready to take over flawlessly that is in question.

Get it together, prove it works under all possible scenarios, prove the costs are comparable or even less and bring it on.  Until then, keep working in the background and bring it to maturity without pain and additional expense to the consumer.  Those are considered minimums in any other endeavor and they should not be left out in this regards just because THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!  THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!.