bobo88 + 58 BL February 8, 2022 (edited) Looking back to 2014 tells us much Simple: Putin just takes oblast directly on the border from Luhansk to Kherson . . . . 1. They then own the Azov Sea 2. They control the Port of Mariupol (BIG ) 3. They control City of Kherson in oblast Kherson on the Dnieper River. A choke point. They control the 70% of Ukraine economy by controlling ports. 4. Russia has control of any new natural gas or oil resources in Azov Sea or off coast of the Southern oblasts. Could go for Odessa, but would be costly. End Result : Russia controls Ukraine. Eventually , gets a Russian friendly govt and Ukraine is in Russian sphere of influence and talk of joining NATO is dead. Of course all those corporations that wanted to do business in Ukraine, oil companies and defense contractors that contributed to the Biden campaign lose. Not the U.S. problem. U.S. Chamber of Commerce says over $50 Billion invested in Ukraine by U.S. Corporations. Ukraine can put all their troops a defense on the Eastern front then Russia will walk into Ukraine from Belarus, Russia Kursk oblast and Odessa. Separatist in Donetsk start to increase fight. Russia feels it "has to" help. Ukraine responses and finds itself in a three front war. The map below depicts potential oil/gas reserves around Crimea, Southern Ukraine, and Azov Sea. Why does Russia now want eastern and Southern Ukraine ? Natural Resources oil/gas. Productive Eastern Ukraine Farmland (10% of global grain exports) Quote from 2019 article , "Why Putin wants Crimea anyway" "But there’s another theory as to why Russia wants Crimea: oil and gas. Gaining control over this Ukrainian land would give Russia access to the hydrocarbons that could be found in maritime zones around Crimea. Large energy companies have expressed interest in helping Kyiv explore the area. It’s possible that the region contains a large amount of wealth, and some intriguing deposits have already been located in Russia’s Black Sea zone. Having control of the energy in the region would give Russia a monopoly on energy exports." THIS ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN IN 2014. IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW BETTER YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT WAS WRITTEN LAST MONTH. Second article ,2014, "Why Putin wanted Crimea" with map detailing potential oil and gas reserves in Southern/Eastern Ukraine's Azov Sea and Black Sea. https://euobserver.com/opinion/123496 My guess is Putin wants the resources as in Oil , Gas , Agriculture in Eastern/Southern Ukraine and Azov Sea, deep water ports etc I don't buy the NATO Kabuki dance bull. 2014 MAP WHERE AT LEAST 50% OF THE OBLASTS WERE PRO RUSSIA AND PROTESTED OR FOUGHT. RUSSIA MIGHT ANNEX SOME OR ALL OF THESE AND LET A PUTIN INSTALLED PRO RUSSIA GOVERNMENT CONTROL THE REST. MAP https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine.png Edited February 26, 2022 by bobo88 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff February 8, 2022 the amurcun propaganda will never cease. Putin does not want Ukraine. The ethnic Russian majority in eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia. Putin has said no to this request. Crimea was never ethnic Ukraine. Crimea was given to Ukraine for administrative control, in an action that violated Russian law and was never ratified by the Dumas. The ethnic Russian majority (ie 98%) voted by referendum to rejoin Russia. Crimea is democratically and legally returned to Russia, by the Crimea people themselves. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobo88 + 58 BL February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, frankfurter said: the amurcun propaganda will never cease. Putin does not want Ukraine. The ethnic Russian majority in eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia. Putin has said no to this request. Crimea was never ethnic Ukraine. Crimea was given to Ukraine for administrative control, in an action that violated Russian law and was never ratified by the Dumas. The ethnic Russian majority (ie 98%) voted by referendum to rejoin Russia. Crimea is democratically and legally returned to Russia, by the Crimea people themselves. If Russia could have it's way it would reconstitute the Soviet territory which would include all the satellite countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff February 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, bobo88 said: If Russia could have it's way it would reconstitute the Soviet territory which would include all the satellite countries. If (Rxxx) USA could have it's way, it would reconstitute the (Sxxxx) UK Empire which would include all the satellite countries. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuarterCenturyVet + 312 JL February 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, frankfurter said: If (Rxxx) USA could have it's way, it would reconstitute the (Sxxxx) UK Empire which would include all the satellite countries. You've got that backwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobo88 + 58 BL February 8, 2022 9 hours ago, frankfurter said: the amurcun propaganda will never cease. Putin does not want Ukraine. The ethnic Russian majority in eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia. Putin has said no to this request. Crimea was never ethnic Ukraine. Crimea was given to Ukraine for administrative control, in an action that violated Russian law and was never ratified by the Dumas. The ethnic Russian majority (ie 98%) voted by referendum to rejoin Russia. Crimea is democratically and legally returned to Russia, by the Crimea people themselves. I believe everything Putin says ! LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,610 RP February 8, 2022 7 hours ago, frankfurter said: If (Rxxx) USA could have it's way, it would reconstitute the (Sxxxx) UK Empire which would include all the satellite countries. Another UK Empire sounds great to me, we just wont use slavery and we wont treat the population like shit this time. Instead we will offer them freedom and education a chance to own and operate their own businesses, take them out of poverty, civil wars, starvation and corruption. Look at the state of South Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Myanmar, Zimbabwe to name a few post independence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starschy + 211 PM February 8, 2022 Crimea was always Russian they paid Ukraine 100 Million annually. But nothing happened. No new schools or other infrastructure improved since 1992. 1992 there should be a vote for Crimea as they where autonomous zone in Russia. After 2013 when Ukraine tried with the US Army to make a Trainings center for US. Plans are available at the Author. That was Game over for Ukraine. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tomasz + 1,608 February 9, 2022 West and Russia by armed fake demonstration and hysteria amuse play with Ukrainians in such a bad and good policeman game as during an interrogation at a police station Goal - implementation of the Minsk agreements. That even the Bandera followers would agree. That it is not the West that gives way to Putin like in Munich 1938 but only the Ukrainians do not want to join the EU and NATO anymore. That there would be no Maidan No III by the way, because Zelenski is afraid of that. And on the Polish net there is a vision of the fight between good and evil. Not good with evil, just a new concert of superpowers like in the 19th century and everyone thinks about what to play here to get something. Biden mid-term election 2022. Johnson to still be the prime minister. Putin as new collector of Ruthenian lands (very important aspect of russian history) Erdogan is even wearing the rags of some new Theodor Roosevelt ending war between Russia and Japan in 1905. Maybe he will even get a Nobel Peace Prize? Why not if Kissinger and Obama get it? Is he a worse warmonger that this 2 Nobel Prize Winners? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 9, 2022 On 2/8/2022 at 10:05 AM, Starschy said: Crimea was always Russian they paid Ukraine 100 Million annually. But nothing happened. No new schools or other infrastructure improved since 1992. 1992 there should be a vote for Crimea as they where autonomous zone in Russia. After 2013 when Ukraine tried with the US Army to make a Trainings center for US. Plans are available at the Author. That was Game over for Ukraine. Wrongo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Gagen + 713 February 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, ronwagn said: Wrongo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars Granted - the Russians took it by conquest - which was fair and square for everyone back at the time they did it. But then they held it for a long while afterwards, which has to count as a legitimate claim. I don't think the way that Russia went about reintegrating it was right, but few people doubt that they had a justifiable reason for wanting to do so. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said: Granted - the Russians took it by conquest - which was fair and square for everyone back at the time they did it. But then they held it for a long while afterwards, which has to count as a legitimate claim. I don't think the way that Russia went about reintegrating it was right, but few people doubt that they had a justifiable reason for wanting to do so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2022 From some of these posts people forget the USA has no legitimate claim to its land. It was was stolen via war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ronwagn said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War Similar crap... different pile Edited February 10, 2022 by TailingsPond 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: From some of these posts people forget the USA has no legitimate claim to its land. It was was stolen via war. The American Indians were a primitive culture with no hope of retaining their land or culture. We have given them many reservations and a lot of land and rights. I am part Apache myself. I believe that there is more Native American blood running in American veins than ever ran before. The Indian reservations are primarily successful because they are able to run casinos and sell tax free cigarettes. There are many very nice reservations. One of my daughters is planning to work on one as a counselor. This is the tribe I am related to. https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/parks-rec/eagle-creek-official/ https://innofthemountaingods.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Gagen + 713 February 10, 2022 21 minutes ago, ronwagn said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War What's your point there? It was Russian territory at the time of the Crimean war, and had been since 1783. In fact the western allies invaded it specifically because it belonged to Russia 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 10, 2022 Read the Wikipedia posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Gagen + 713 February 10, 2022 1 minute ago, ronwagn said: Read the Wikipedia posts. I did, but I can't make out where you are headed with this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 10, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said: I did, but I can't make out where you are headed with this. Russia took Crimea, by force, from the Crimean Tatars and later fought a long war for it and lost. They eventually emigrated lots of Russians into parts of Ukraine and Crimea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine Edited February 10, 2022 by ronwagn reference Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Gagen + 713 February 10, 2022 11 hours ago, ronwagn said: Russia took Crimea, by force, from the Crimean Tatars and later fought a long war for it and lost. They eventually emigrated lots of Russians into parts of Ukraine and Crimea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine Russia lost the Crimean war, but the Crimea was still a part of Russia afterwards (so was Ukraine for that matter) so from a territorial perspective it was irrelevent. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobo88 + 58 BL February 10, 2022 On 2/9/2022 at 7:40 PM, ronwagn said: Russia took Crimea, by force, from the Crimean Tatars and later fought a long war for it and lost. They eventually emigrated lots of Russians into parts of Ukraine and Crimea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine Ronwagn. One of my posts on another subject was deleted. Do they actually delete posts ? I never a reason. No contact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Selva + 252 SP February 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, bobo88 said: Ronwagn. One of my posts on another subject was deleted. Do they actually delete posts ? I never a reason. No contact. bobo88, your thread about Ukraine was deleted because you already posted similar thread on the same day. Since this is an energy forum, any topic that have nothing to do with energy, will be deleted. Given the current events in Ukraine, I have allowed a couple of topics, but we already have enough topics about Russia and Ukraine that you can post your comments, without starting same or similar topics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 11, 2022 12 hours ago, bobo88 said: Ronwagn. One of my posts on another subject was deleted. Do they actually delete posts ? I never a reason. No contact. I really doubt it. We are allowed to block people who are too obnoxious in our own opinion, but just for our own feed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 February 11, 2022 16 hours ago, Eric Gagen said: Russia lost the Crimean war, but the Crimea was still a part of Russia afterwards (so was Ukraine for that matter) so from a territorial perspective it was irrelevent. It is a complex subject and there are many opinions on the issue. It is irrelevant to you because you don't care to study it more deeply. That is your right and is understandable. Fun facts: Kruschev was Ukranian and one of his last acts was to make sure that Ukraine retained Crimea and all of its land. Putin later ignored his actions. Ukrainians speak their own language and it is not understood by Russians or vice versa, unless they are bilingual. There are, of course, similarities between the two languages. Just like their are similarities between Spanish and Portugese or Italian. If you get Fox Nation there is an interesting Tucker Carlson special on Ukraine by an expert on Russia and Ukraine. It doesn't prove my point, but explains a lot of the confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Gagen + 713 February 11, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, ronwagn said: It is a complex subject and there are many opinions on the issue. It is irrelevant to you because you don't care to study it more deeply. That is your right and is understandable. Fun facts: Kruschev was Ukranian and one of his last acts was to make sure that Ukraine retained Crimea and all of its land. Putin later ignored his actions. Ukrainians speak their own language and it is not understood by Russians or vice versa, unless they are bilingual. There are, of course, similarities between the two languages. Just like their are similarities between Spanish and Portugese or Italian. If you get Fox Nation there is an interesting Tucker Carlson special on Ukraine by an expert on Russia and Ukraine. It doesn't prove my point, but explains a lot of the confusion. I realize that there is a lot of complexity - I'm something of an amateur historian, and my son and I were discussing the political and historical situation in the Crimea yesterday as a matter of fact. I just don't see what point or objective you see in that history that paints Russia into some geopolitical corner. The Russian empire for a very very long time owned Ukraine and the Crimea. Several wars were fought in the area, and Russian control was firm. At the end of World War 1, Russia was forced to give up Ukraine in it's peace with Germany, but it was given back after the all allies ended up beating Germany. The history that really matters for the current situation is the part below: The Ukraine broke away from Russia and too the Crimea with itin 1991 Crimea had been made a part of Ukraine, as you note by Kruschev. At that time being in the Ukraine in the USSR meant the same as being in Florida in the USA. Russia then, and now had always made it clear that they wanted the Crimea back for military strategic reasons, and the inclusion of the Crimea in Ukraine came with a proviso that the the Russian Black Sea fleet be allowed to continue using it's military bases there. Then in 2014 the Russians made a power grab and took Crimea by force in a way that was/is clearly illegal by international law, and they have held it ever since, and don't seem likely to leave any time soon. So what part of history makes this situation different from what I have outlined in very broad strokes here? Edited February 11, 2022 by Eric Gagen 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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