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Ron Wagner

Does Toyota Know Something That We Don’t?

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1 hour ago, Ron Wagner said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ_NlnmPQYk

Does Toyota Know Something That We Don’t?

(This gives the pros and cons of Ammonia for ICE fuel) RCW

Of course they do.  Japan can do math. 

But: ammonia(Hello Beirut)  It is explosive(Good luck getting ANYONE to be captain of that ship even through safe waters), horrendously corrosive, and its energy density is barely above that of dry wood.   Low flame temperature as well compared to Ch4, thus its efficiency is going to suck in any industrial application or producing power by burning it.   

I would bet dollars to doughnuts making CH4 and shipping that would be cheaper. 

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1 hour ago, Ron Wagner said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ_NlnmPQYk

Does Toyota Know Something That We Don’t?

(This gives the pros and cons of Ammonia for ICE fuel) RCW

Okay checked it out. Yes Ammonia, NH3, can be used to run an engine. I remember an engineer telling me once that he could get peanut oil to run an engine, but it remains very much more expensive and difficult to do so. Note that you'd need NH3 with an H2 kicker and a fuel tank under pressure, not to mention a purpose-built engine. Like or not good 'ol gasoline is an extremely convenient fuel that remains liquid at room temperatures and can be pumped around with ease and is backed by a long established infrastructure for distributing the fuel. To go the Toyota route not only would we need a whole new car fleet but a whole new set of gas/petrol stations distributing one fuel that's toxic and another that's dangerous. He mentions at the end that there might be applications which can't be electrified, maybe heavy freight transport, but the same problems remain. Nice idea but I won't rush out an buy one.  

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3 hours ago, markslawson said:

Okay checked it out. Yes Ammonia, NH3, can be used to run an engine. I remember an engineer telling me once that he could get peanut oil to run an engine, but it remains very much more expensive and difficult to do so. Note that you'd need NH3 with an H2 kicker and a fuel tank under pressure, not to mention a purpose-built engine. Like or not good 'ol gasoline is an extremely convenient fuel that remains liquid at room temperatures and can be pumped around with ease and is backed by a long established infrastructure for distributing the fuel. To go the Toyota route not only would we need a whole new car fleet but a whole new set of gas/petrol stations distributing one fuel that's toxic and another that's dangerous. He mentions at the end that there might be applications which can't be electrified, maybe heavy freight transport, but the same problems remain. Nice idea but I won't rush out an buy one.  

Ammonia for transportation makes sense for ships....not much else expect for energy storage then power generation......IE you have the space for the  cooling equipment required to keep ammonia liquid...and Ammonia has only half the Energy value of Gasoline....IE on a ship you have the room for storing twice the volume over bunker oil and on a ship you are out to sea....ammonia gassing off not so much a problem...Ammonia gassing off in a car accident.......um not so pretty

 

expense??? well right now so much green  energy is curtailed you can get intermittent energy at less than 1 cent per KWH...so creating ammonia with excess green energy makes sense

the real value of green Ammonia today is for fertilizer manufacturing...a huge market

 

the company that puts together small scale reasonable cost green fertilizer plant that a Ag coop can use will win the prize 

 

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11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Of course they do.  Japan can do math. 

But: ammonia(Hello Beirut)  It is explosive(Good luck getting ANYONE to be captain of that ship even through safe waters), horrendously corrosive, and its energy density is barely above that of dry wood.   Low flame temperature as well compared to Ch4, thus its efficiency is going to suck in any industrial application or producing power by burning it.   

I would bet dollars to doughnuts making CH4 and shipping that would be cheaper. 

Gasoline is explosive, and lots of ammonia is already shipped for fertilizer.

I don't like ammonia because of it's toxicity and water solubility, but all useful fuels burn and can cause expositions so you can't fault it for that.

Flame temperature, energy density, and process efficiency are not tied together as much as you think. 

Edited by TailingsPond

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Just another point about Ammonia:

Fertilzer(vast majority NH3 forms of fertilizer) consumes ~1% of worlds energy consumption.  So, if you wish to say "excess" wind/solar can be used to make Fertilizer... Ok[Assuming one can make an intermittent industrial production machine function reliably and cheaply}, but it is a very small bump on the road of excess wind/solar.  

Fertilizer in and of itself is useless as an energy dump.  One must be able to use Ammonia for a multitude of other industrial applications and herein lies the gargantuan problem.   Its Explosive, Corrosive, Low Flame Temperature, High cost to store, etc. 

A far GREATER use of industrial energy is Plastics.  Plastics require ~3%-->12%(depending on how you calculate energy of course) of worlds energy consumption currently and it is RISING.  So, you would be FAR better off creating a Hydrocarbon with excess Wind/Solar energy and storing it in a substance which can be useful for 12% of the worlds energy consumption and ***rising***.  This substance is named: CH4 or Propane or... All of which have existing infrastrucutre, knowledge, and ease of storage/transportation/use.    In fact, if the world starts LIMITING the number of plastics allowed to be produced to facilitate recycling rate, this will necessitate the move to higher molecular weight plastics and this requires much more power to produce further increasing plastics energy demand.

PS: Ammonia with its Nitrogen component is not going to work in metals refining(most of the common ones anyways).  I am sure there are metals it can be used to refine. 

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2 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Gasoline is explosive, and lots of ammonia is already shipped for fertilizer.

I don't like ammonia because of it's toxicity and water solubility, but all useful fuels burn and can cause expositions so you can't fault it for that.

Flame temperature, energy density, and process efficiency are not tied together as much as you think. 

Uh, no gasoline is not explosive.  Gasoline for it to "detonate" requires oxygen and compression and why it has a combustible rating and not an explosive rating.  Ammonia--> does not require oxygen to detonate and why Gasoline combusts, but ammonia while it can combust it can also explode.  A shock wave going off next to gasoline does NOT cause it to explode, in fact if no oxygen is present it acts just like water even if a giant bomb explodes inside a tank of gasoline.

All fertilizers are NOT ammonia.  They have ammonia in them but MORE importantly, they have shock stabilizers so when it is being TRANSPORTED and say the truck rolls over it does not EXPLODE.  Why vast majority(95%+) of ammonia you see as fertilizer comes in pellet form, not a liquid.  

Ammonia IS explosive due to shock and why it is used to BLOW THINGS UP, gasoline--> is not. 

And yes, Flame temperature, energy density, and process efficiency are tied together(suggest taking a damned Chemistry class with basic thermodynamics class)🙄

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1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Just another point about Ammonia:

Fertilzer(vast majority NH3 forms of fertilizer) consumes ~1% of worlds energy consumption.  So, if you wish to say "excess" wind/solar can be used to make Fertilizer... Ok[Assuming one can make an intermittent industrial production machine function reliably and cheaply}, but it is a very small bump on the road of excess wind/solar.  

Fertilizer in and of itself is useless as an energy dump.  One must be able to use Ammonia for a multitude of other industrial applications and herein lies the gargantuan problem.   Its Explosive, Corrosive, Low Flame Temperature, High cost to store, etc. 

A far GREATER use of industrial energy is Plastics.  Plastics require ~3%-->12%(depending on how you calculate energy of course) of worlds energy consumption currently and it is RISING.  So, you would be FAR better off creating a Hydrocarbon with excess Wind/Solar energy and storing it in a substance which can be useful for 12% of the worlds energy consumption and ***rising***.  This substance is named: CH4 or Propane or... All of which have existing infrastrucutre, knowledge, and ease of storage/transportation/use.    In fact, if the world starts LIMITING the number of plastics allowed to be produced to facilitate recycling rate, this will necessitate the move to higher molecular weight plastics and this requires much more power to produce further increasing plastics energy demand.

PS: Ammonia with its Nitrogen component is not going to work in metals refining(most of the common ones anyways).  I am sure there are metals it can be used to refine. 

 

Ammonia production is methane intensive

Approximately 33 million British thermal units per tonne
 
Natural gas is the primary raw material used to produce ammonia. Approximately 33 million British thermal units (mm Btu) of natural gas are needed to produce 1 ton of ammonia.

 

you need around .7 tonnes of natural gas to produce a tonne of ammonia

so the amount of nat gas used annually in Ammonia production is 150 million tonnes

which is 6 percent of all Nat gas produced

not chump change

 

Ammonia

 
 
The global industrial production of ammonia in 2021 was 235 million tonnes. Industrial ammonia is sold either as ammonia liquor (usually 28% ammonia in water) ...
 
 
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2 hours ago, notsonice said:
 

Ammonia production is methane intensive

Approximately 33 million British thermal units per tonne
 
Natural gas is the primary raw material used to produce ammonia. Approximately 33 million British thermal units (mm Btu) of natural gas are needed to produce 1 ton of ammonia.

 

you need around .7 tonnes of natural gas to produce a tonne of ammonia

so the amount of nat gas used annually in Ammonia production is 150 million tonnes

which is 6 percent of all Nat gas produced

not chump change

 

Ammonia

 
 
 
The global industrial production of ammonia in 2021 was 235 million tonnes. Industrial ammonia is sold either as ammonia liquor (usually 28% ammonia in water) ...
 
 

While 1% sounds nice, or 6% of methane used... is in your book not "chump change", in my book that is chump change in the grand scheme of things, there are MUCH larger fish to fry.  As a short term, make a few more bucks of profit as there is no other viable(other than pumped hydro storage) power storage solution--> Ok.  One can say it all "adds" up--> but it really doesn't.  Working at the margins is not how one changes basic industrial processes.  Unless things become cheaper and easier to clean up at the MAJOR industrial starting blocks of industry/refining, quicker, what is the point?  Why oil beat out coal.  Why NG may*** beat out oil for many things.  Why nuclear has not superseded all other forms of power--> it is not universal. 

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9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Uh, no gasoline is not explosive.  Gasoline for it to "detonate" requires oxygen and compression and why it has a combustible rating and not an explosive rating.  Ammonia--> does not require oxygen to detonate and why Gasoline combusts, but ammonia while it can combust it can also explode.  A shock wave going off next to gasoline does NOT cause it to explode, in fact if no oxygen is present it acts just like water even if a giant bomb explodes inside a tank of gasoline.

All fertilizers are NOT ammonia.  They have ammonia in them but MORE importantly, they have shock stabilizers so when it is being TRANSPORTED and say the truck rolls over it does not EXPLODE.  Why vast majority(95%+) of ammonia you see as fertilizer comes in pellet form, not a liquid.  

Ammonia IS explosive due to shock and why it is used to BLOW THINGS UP, gasoline--> is not. 

And yes, Flame temperature, energy density, and process efficiency are tied together(suggest taking a damned Chemistry class with basic thermodynamics class)🙄

I did not say anything that you eluded to.

Fuels may require compression to explode but that is available and detonation is not the same as explosion.  Look up some definitions

I did not say all fertilizers are ammonia, I said ammonia is commonly shipped for fertilizer purposes.  Ammonia in pellet form is the ammonium ion, anhydrous ammonia is also commonly shipped.

I have an actual chemistry degree.  Flame temperature, energy density and process efficacy are not that tied together.

Consider the homologs of ethane, ethylene, and acetylene.  All three compounds are 2 carbon units with different energies of formation and vastly different flame temperatures. Acetylene has the lowest energy density but highest flame temperature (e.g. use in cutting torches). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethane

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene

You really are in over your head here, go fix your beater car.

 

 

 

 

Edited by TailingsPond

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4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

While 1% sounds nice, or 6% of methane used... is in your book not "chump change", in my book that is chump change in the grand scheme of things, there are MUCH larger fish to fry.  As a short term, make a few more bucks of profit as there is no other viable(other than pumped hydro storage) power storage solution--> Ok.  One can say it all "adds" up--> but it really doesn't.  Working at the margins is not how one changes basic industrial processes.  Unless things become cheaper and easier to clean up at the MAJOR industrial starting blocks of industry/refining, quicker, what is the point?  Why oil beat out coal.  Why NG may*** beat out oil for many things.  Why nuclear has not superseded all other forms of power--> it is not universal. 

your book???? ha ha ha 

6 percent of methane used around the world by one industry alone.....how may other industries use that much??????

Iron/Steel????? not likely

next...Oil refineries ...I doubt it

Power Generation yes

and the Green transition will go after that market

One can say it all "adds" up--> but it really doesn't???? try to minimize methane used in Ammonia production all you want.......

Excess Solar and Wind power that is now curtailed will be now turned into Ammonia

A new major Green Ammonia project announce every week now...Enjoy eating crow

 

and the price of Nat Gas....in the toilet today at the Henry Hub

NATURAL GAS 11 mins 1.677  -0.012 -0.71%

 

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11 hours ago, notsonice said:

and the price of Nat Gas....in the toilet today at the Henry Hub

Some of these people have no reasoning.

If the price of oil and gas is down, that is good and they will brag that it is the cheapest energy source available.

If the price of oil and gas goes up, that is good and they will brag about strong oil and gas demand.

They can't pick one side on anything.  "EV's are straining the grid", but also "no EV's are being sold."  Uhhh....

 

 

Edited by TailingsPond

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21 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

I have an actual chemistry degree. 

🤣🤡🤣

Sure ya do, if you did, you would be able to understand what efficiency and industrial processes mean regarding flame temperature, energy density etc. 

Dear genius: Suggest reading glasses: I never said you said you all fertilizers are ammonia...🤣

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21 hours ago, notsonice said:

your book???? ha ha ha 

6 percent of methane used around the world by one industry alone.....how may other industries use that much??????

Iron/Steel????? not likely

next...Oil refineries ...I doubt it

Power Generation yes

and the Green transition will go after that market

One can say it all "adds" up--> but it really doesn't???? try to minimize methane used in Ammonia production all you want.......

Excess Solar and Wind power that is now curtailed will be now turned into Ammonia

A new major Green Ammonia project announce every week now...Enjoy eating crow

 

and the price of Nat Gas....in the toilet today at the Henry Hub

NATURAL GAS 11 mins 1.677  -0.012 -0.71%

 

.
.
 

 

 

 

 

image.png

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Your idea of "links" are to all corrupt government subsidy boondongles...  Not one thing from actual industry who would be looking to "capitalize"(oh no I just swore at socialists everywhere) on~free power to produce a commercial product. 

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21 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

You really are in over your head here, go fix your beater car.

Going with old beaters which you barely have to work on even though lazy losers on the internet pretend you have to work on them all the times, saves me $5000/year in car expenses compared to pretentious people like you.  This has allowed me to buy another house in a nice part of town and have renters now pay me +$30,000/year to live in it and has already payed off the 15 year mortgage in less than 10 years which is now free and clear and now I get a tidy ~+++$20,000/year free and clear.   It also allowed me to start my own very MINOR business in support of the oil industry which has allowed me to work whatever hours I want now. 

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2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Your idea of "links" are to all corrupt government subsidy boondongles...  Not one thing from actual industry who would be looking to "capitalize"(oh no I just swore at socialists everywhere) on~free power to produce a commercial product. 

your reduced yourself to babbling   nonstop bs

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5 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Going with old beaters which you barely have to work on even though lazy losers on the internet pretend you have to work on them all the times, saves me $5000/year in car expenses compared to pretentious people like you.  This has allowed me to buy another house in a nice part of town and have renters now pay me +$30,000/year to live in it and has already payed off the 15 year mortgage in less than 10 years which is now free and clear and now I get a tidy ~+++$20,000/year free and clear.   It also allowed me to start my own very MINOR business in support of the oil industry which has allowed me to work whatever hours I want now. 

Why dont you concentrate on getting a better job that pays way more, that gives you the opportunity to pay off your 25 year mortgage in 3 years like I did. It also gives you the cash to pay someone to fix your beater instead of you or better still buy a new car! I actually own 2 houses free and clear now and I'll be retiring this year at 55, not bragging but sometimes stop, step back, and look at what youre doing and why!

If you have a decent brain and work hard it should all work out for you, if not I guess you continue to repair your old beater hoping 1 day you can drive it in a tunnel!

Edited by Rob Plant
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(edited)

7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Going with old beaters which you barely have to work on even though lazy losers on the internet pretend you have to work on them all the times, saves me $5000/year in car expenses compared to pretentious people like you.  This has allowed me to buy another house in a nice part of town and have renters now pay me +$30,000/year to live in it and has already payed off the 15 year mortgage in less than 10 years which is now free and clear and now I get a tidy ~+++$20,000/year free and clear.   It also allowed me to start my own very MINOR business in support of the oil industry which has allowed me to work whatever hours I want now. 

We own three properties, don't work at all, have money, and drive nice (paid off) cars.

You do you.

Edited by TailingsPond
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8 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Going with old beaters which you barely have to work on even though lazy losers on the internet pretend you have to work on them all the times, saves me $5000/year in car expenses compared to pretentious people like you.  This has allowed me to buy another house in a nice part of town and have renters now pay me +$30,000/year to live in it and has already payed off the 15 year mortgage in less than 10 years which is now free and clear and now I get a tidy ~+++$20,000/year free and clear.   It also allowed me to start my own very MINOR business in support of the oil industry which has allowed me to work whatever hours I want now. 

15 year Mortgage???? mortgages are  no different than those who take out car loans or lease cars with no tax benefit. Paying interest for 10 years???? Like you are working for the Fed and banks...  I have never paid interest to anyone....Assumed a loan once.....and paid it off  within the first month after the assumption. 

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16 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Why dont you concentrate on getting a better job that pays way more, that gives you the opportunity to pay off your 25 year mortgage in 3 years like I did. It also gives you the cash to pay someone to fix your beater instead of you or better still buy a new car! I actually own 2 houses free and clear now and I'll be retiring this year at 55, not bragging but sometimes stop, step back, and look at what youre doing and why!

If you have a decent brain and work hard it should all work out for you, if not I guess you continue to repair your old beater hoping 1 day you can drive it in a tunnel!

Rob, your EVs will soon be museum pieces demonstrating how delusional the average Brit could be. You will have to visit the museum to see an EV.

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18 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Why dont you concentrate on getting a better job that pays way more, that gives you the opportunity to pay off your 25 year mortgage in 3 years like I did. It also gives you the cash to pay someone to fix your beater instead of you or better still buy a new car! I actually own 2 houses free and clear now and I'll be retiring this year at 55, not bragging but sometimes stop, step back, and look at what youre doing and why!

If you have a decent brain and work hard it should all work out for you, if not I guess you continue to repair your old beater hoping 1 day you can drive it in a tunnel!

Right, a better job... I did, I bought a rental home and an apartment complex which now pays me, created a business which allows me to do many things like oh I don't know, raise a family and be there for them.... Mechanical Engineering pays over $100k/yr + overtime... So, according to you I should go back to school and do what exactly... learn to code... right they are being laid off by the tens of thousands currently for cheap Indians... Or, save a few $$$, buy another house which now pays me in rental fees $35,000/year even in retirement and due to inflation increases in value, or buy something like a laundromat.  Hrmm Gee, which is vastly superior...?  And I can send those houses to my Children tax free if I died as they are a business and tax free to my children threshold for a business is MULTIPLE times higher than as an individual. 

You only pay others to do things for you if you can use your time to make a higher $$$/hour.  If your current job does not allow you to work overtime and make 1.5X base hourly salary whenever  you wish(almost no one gets this ability), then paying others an unbelievable amount of money for simple work makes YOU the fool idiot.  Why? You can do for yourself, saving that money, and likewise you are  teaching your children, instilling discipline, deferred gratification, and they grow up to NOT be pretentious LOSERS who can't do anything or KNOW anything (oh who could that be...) instead of paying someone else to do it. 

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4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Right, a better job... I did, I bought a rental home and an apartment complex which now pays me, created a business which allows me to do many things like oh I don't know, raise a family and be there for them.... Mechanical Engineering pays over $100k/yr + overtime... So, according to you I should go back to school and do what exactly... learn to code... right they are being laid off by the tens of thousands currently for cheap Indians... Or, save a few $$$, buy another house which now pays me in rental fees $35,000/year even in retirement and due to inflation increases in value, or buy something like a laundromat.  Hrmm Gee, which is vastly superior...?  And I can send those houses to my Children tax free if I died as they are a business and tax free to my children threshold for a business is MULTIPLE times higher than as an individual. 

You only pay others to do things for you if you can use your time to make a higher $$$/hour.  If your current job does not allow you to work overtime and make 1.5X base hourly salary whenever  you wish(almost no one gets this ability), then paying others an unbelievable amount of money for simple work makes YOU the fool idiot.  Why? You can do for yourself, saving that money, and likewise you are  teaching your children, instilling discipline, deferred gratification, and they grow up to NOT be pretentious LOSERS who can't do anything or KNOW anything (oh who could that be...) instead of paying someone else to do it. 

I agree with you that nobody should switch to a career in relatively simple programming.  However, they are not hiring "cheap Indians" as replacements, they are switching to AI.  The only people with a future are the software engineers who think up the architecture and big ideas. "Code monkeys" will soon be gone.

Laundromats are a big pain to run, we had one in my first partners' family.  They only attract poor people, and with that the associated problems that come with people who do not have enough money (theft / disturbances).  It was pretty profitable for a while but when all the machines needed replacement they sold the business off.  I'm sure you would suggest spending all your vacation days you get from your regular job repairing appliances, but that is a shit life. 

You know sometimes paying others to do your work increases your quality of life.  Do you never go to a nice restaurant?  Sure you shouldn't do it everyday but the service industry exists for a reason.  It's a nice treat, and if you have extra disposable money why not?

Edited by TailingsPond
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7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, your EVs will soon be museum pieces demonstrating how delusional the average Brit could be. You will have to visit the museum to see an EV.

Your off topic spouting the same BS!

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(edited)

5 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Right, a better job... I did, I bought a rental home and an apartment complex which now pays me, created a business which allows me to do many things like oh I don't know, raise a family and be there for them.... Mechanical Engineering pays over $100k/yr + overtime... So, according to you I should go back to school and do what exactly... learn to code... right they are being laid off by the tens of thousands currently for cheap Indians... Or, save a few $$$, buy another house which now pays me in rental fees $35,000/year even in retirement and due to inflation increases in value, or buy something like a laundromat.  Hrmm Gee, which is vastly superior...?  And I can send those houses to my Children tax free if I died as they are a business and tax free to my children threshold for a business is MULTIPLE times higher than as an individual. 

You only pay others to do things for you if you can use your time to make a higher $$$/hour.  If your current job does not allow you to work overtime and make 1.5X base hourly salary whenever  you wish(almost no one gets this ability), then paying others an unbelievable amount of money for simple work makes YOU the fool idiot.  Why? You can do for yourself, saving that money, and likewise you are  teaching your children, instilling discipline, deferred gratification, and they grow up to NOT be pretentious LOSERS who can't do anything or KNOW anything (oh who could that be...) instead of paying someone else to do it. 

Wow youre properly babbling today, the crap is flowing freely from your keyboard warrior fingers now!!

What are you on about laundromat???? Go back to school????

Did I say any of this? NO!!!

All I said was reflect on where you are in life adjust what you do and get a better job! If for you thats working in a laundromat then youve got a very long way to go !!

Maybe you can start digging some tunnels for your fantasy underground system??? Ive got a spade I can lend you! 🤡

Edited by Rob Plant
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On 2/13/2024 at 12:02 PM, Ron Wagner said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ_NlnmPQYk

Does Toyota Know Something That We Don’t?

(This gives the pros and cons of Ammonia for ICE fuel) RCW

agree. definitely, the people at Toyota know infinitely more than you.

consider:  burning NH3 will result in increased levels of N, NO, nitromethane, and other N compounds in the atmosphere. N destroys Ozone, which will destroy our planet much faster than CO2.  N by itself kills all life forms: CO2 does not. 

 

 

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