Bolsonaro Wins in Brazil

needing to put "far" in front of "left" or "right" when you describe the political identity of a future president is never a good thing but there it is. The far-right candidate won in Brazil. Now what?

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6 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

The far-right candidate won in Brazil. Now what?

I'm guessing the "far-left"  (or anything left of "far-right")  will have a meltdown?

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They already are. But in this guy's case it may not be just a dramatic "far". I've come across some very, let's say, impressive quotes on gays, for example. But let's see how he fares. Obviously, the pendulum has swung again, like it did in Mexico, though in the opposite direction.

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(edited)

Nothing unexpected when you know about scale of Brazilian economic and political crisis= especially corruption scandal. Whole political class was compromised. Its not a good information for future of Brazil but all BRICS countries now have serious problems.

I didnt watch a lot of Rio Olympic games but OG in a country with 4 % recession in 2016 must have been awkward for everyone.

Edited by Tomasz

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On 10/29/2018 at 10:25 AM, Marina Schwarz said:

needing to put "far" in front of "left" or "right" when you describe the political identity of a future president is never a good thing but there it is.

 

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So... how often does one actually see the term "Far Left" in Mainstream Media?

Asking for a friend.

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16 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

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So... how often does one actually see the term "Far Left" in Mainstream Media?

Asking for a friend.

 

On 10/28/2018 at 9:25 PM, Marina Schwarz said:

needing to put "far" in front of "left" or "right" when you describe the political identity of a future president is never a good thing but there it is. The far-right candidate won in Brazil. Now what?

What Tom said.  20-30 years ago, "Far Right" would have been called "Centrist".  To wit: the liberal, American politicians calling Trump anti-immigration today are on record 10-20 years ago saying exactly what Trump is saying.  

That shift isn't an accident; the left explicitly uses conceptual framing to guide conversation, public opinion, etc.  I.e. they deliberately manipulate to achieve political goals.  In America, this "framing" takes the form of appeals to decency: if you don't support illegal immigration/feminism/whatever, then clearly you're racist/sexist/whatever. Essentially, they use framing to perform character assassination on anyone they disagree with.

Their manipulation slowly intensified during the Obama administration.  With the support of federal governments around the world, they learned they could say whatever they wanted w/o consequence.  Unfortunately, manipulation (and economic irresponsibility) breed resentment.  Average citizens are tiring of their childishness and returning to the centrism of 20-30 years ago.  

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4 hours ago, mthebold said:

 

What Tom said.  20-30 years ago, "Far Right" would have been called "Centrist".  To wit: the liberal, American politicians calling Trump anti-immigration today are on record 10-20 years ago saying exactly what Trump is saying.  

That shift isn't an accident; the left explicitly uses conceptual framing to guide conversation, public opinion, etc.  I.e. they deliberately manipulate to achieve political goals.  In America, this "framing" takes the form of appeals to decency: if you don't support illegal immigration/feminism/whatever, then clearly you're racist/sexist/whatever. Essentially, they use framing to perform character assassination on anyone they disagree with.

Their manipulation slowly intensified during the Obama administration.  With the support of federal governments around the world, they learned they could say whatever they wanted w/o consequence.  Unfortunately, manipulation (and economic irresponsibility) breed resentment.  Average citizens are tiring of their childishness and returning to the centrism of 20-30 years ago.  

 

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P.S. in the ongoing meme war online, Twitter and Facebook are totally freaking out trying to squash memes. 

The purge against NPC memes was quite something to see.  So far, Twitter and Facebook still have to manually "flag" memes which do not meet their "standards".  No computer automated way yet exists for AI or algorithms to find, flag and remove "offensive" memes.

The authoritarian panic...  it's ... beautiful  : )

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I suspect there is a major difference in what people consider left/right in different parts of the world. From a post-totalitarian perspective, the U.S Democratic party is so far from left it's funny when someone calls them left. Perhaps things are similar with Bolsonaro although I did come across a quote from him regarding his views on gays that smacked of yes, far-right in its suggestion of utmost intolerance these days more typical of the far-left, which to me are all those radicals who have well and truly forgotten the original idea of leveling the playing field not just for a select few marginalized groups but for, I don't know, everyone. So, Tom, I don't really care if MSM use the term far-left. I certainly do.

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Marina, I think we agree more than disagree on this.  Neither you nor I live in the U.S. and so probably view the U.S. MSM a bit differently than some others.

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Even if we do get our regular fill of them, yes.

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16 hours ago, mthebold said:

That shift isn't an accident; the left explicitly uses conceptuaframing to guide conversation, public opinion, etc.  I.e. they deliberately manipulate to achieve political goals.  In America, this "framing" takes the form of appeals to decency: if you don't support illegal immigration/feminism/whatever, then clearly you're racist/sexist/whatever. Essentially, they use framing to perform character assassination on anyone they disagree with.

Semi-serious question : Is it only the left in the states that does this? Are both sides not equally good at it? 

 

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On 10/29/2018 at 3:34 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

I'm guessing the "far-left"  (or anything left of "far-right")  will have a meltdown?

I must confess..... I got really intimidated by your profile 

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6 minutes ago, Westy said:

I must confess..... I got really intimidated by your profile 

Really?  Why?  I'm just a cranky old fart who loves to talk about oil & gas.

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1 minute ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Really?  Why?  I'm just a cranky old fart who loves to talk about oil & gas.

Yes.... I am like wow... he knows so much .... well I love oil and gas as well ...

 

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Well, thanks for your kind words.  Just keep asking questions, keep an open mind, and keep learning.  Curiosity is a great tool that anyone can use.

Recommended reading: https://www.oilystuffblog.com

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2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Semi-serious question : Is it only the left in the states that does this? Are both sides not equally good at it? 

 

Well, that depends on what side you ask, doesn't it?  "MY party doesn't do it, but the OTHER party sure does."  LOL.

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2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Well, thanks for your kind words.  Just keep asking questions, keep an open mind, and keep learning.  Curiosity is a great tool that anyone can use.

Recommended reading: https://www.oilystuffblog.com

Thanks sir, well just a little description .... I’m a Nigerian,just obtained a b.tech in Petroleum Engineering.... pls you can always send me relevant links and info.... I will appreciate 

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On 11/5/2018 at 3:23 AM, mthebold said:

That shift isn't an accident; the left explicitly uses conceptual framing to guide conversation, public opinion, etc.  I.e. they deliberately manipulate to achieve political goals.  In America, this "framing" takes the form of appeals to decency: if you don't support illegal immigration/feminism/whatever, then clearly you're racist/sexist/whatever. Essentially, they use framing to perform character assassination on anyone they disagree with.

A bit difficult these days to get a proper definition of "Free Speech" and "Hate Speech".

Judging by the mass censorship and waves of purges of conservatives on Twitter and Facebook this year, it would appear that "Hate Speech" is anything that doesn't agree with a Globalist agenda.

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(edited)

10 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Semi-serious question : Is it only the left in the states that does this? Are both sides not equally good at it? 

 

50 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

A bit difficult these days to get a proper definition of "Free Speech" and "Hate Speech".

Judging by the mass censorship and waves of purges of conservatives on Twitter and Facebook this year, it would appear that "Hate Speech" is anything that doesn't agree with a Globalist agenda.

81016834c67f9f84d8134c8ed84062a3296dfa9c1ce16c9757a7919744de43bb.png

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8 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Well, that depends on what side you ask, doesn't it?  "MY party doesn't do it, but the OTHER party sure does."  LOL.

Responding to both of these: everything has a frame, even when that frame isn't conscious or intentional.  Framing is an inevitable consequence of people experiencing certain things, talking to certain people, and arriving at certain opinions.  Even the idea of "framing" is just a frame we use to think about thinking.

Framing is a tool, and any tool can be used benevolently or maliciously.  The left's innovation was weaponizing it.  Hence, the sometimes absurd accusations of racism, reflexive character assassination, and attempts to control public opinion through emotion. Frame something in a particular way, and facts don't matter.  I claim the left has weaponized framing because the average leftist I meet refuses to acknowledge any re-framing I provide.  It's not that they disagree with the re-framing; it's that they refuse to acknowledge it entirely.  Anything outside their preferred frame is treated as heretical - and those who hold differing frames are vilified.  

The Right obviously has frames - and no doubt there are people in industry & government who abuse this fact - but the average rightist I've met at least acknowledges alternative frames.  Even the more extreme rightists I've met will listen, think about my frame, and offer honest thoughts.  Even more telling: most rightists I've met never intentionally studied rhetorical tools.  Instead, they learned practical skills, discuss their area of expertise - business, engineering, skilled trades, their community, etc - and present a frame that reflects their reality as they understand it.  They use frames as frames were intended: as a tool for understanding.

To summarize: in my personal experience, leftists choose a conclusion, study rhetoric, and debate to win. They view and use framing as a weapon.  The average rightist studies something practical, observe the world around them, and presents their frame with intent to discuss.  Rightists are trained workers; leftists are trained manipulators.  I can hold honest discussions with rightists; I usually can't with leftists.  

What I find interesting is that Trump is a response to the left's machinations. I watched for eight years as the left became more emboldened, eventually refusing to listen.  When they thought political victory was assured, they happily trampled on those they disagreed with.  Industries were attacked, poor people were labeled "deplorables", and any disagreement was met with character assassination.  After all that, some of the most reasonable people I've ever met finally said "F*** it!" and voted for Trump.  What choice did they have? 

We now find ourselves in an interesting situation: otherwise decent human beings are ignoring Trump's lies, machinations, mistreatment of women, and generally repulsive nature.  He's a terrible human being, they know it, and they don't care.  All that matters is winning.  Trump is the right's decision to fight fire with fire.  

The silver lining on all this is that it's destroying Washington's reputation.  There's a small chance people will embrace smaller federal government & states rights, which would return us to the Constitution's intent.  

Further reading, if you're interested in how Trump fights fire with fire.

Edited by mthebold
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1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

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P.S. Gab is back online.  Twitter and Facebook lost this round of censorship.

BRB, time for me to spew some more memes in the online meme war (don't worry, I won't spew memes here, this is primarily an oil & gas forum, and not a Freedom of Speech battleground).

P.P.S. have you met my old Freedom of Speech sock, Malaysian anon AKA Yellow Card?  Fun times.

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2 hours ago, mthebold said:

The average rightist studies something practical, observe the world around them, and presents their frame with intent to discuss

"presents their frame with intent to discuss"

"presents their frame with intent to discuss"

Worth repeating.  In fact, anything less is force.  Most people, if asked, would tell you that they don't like arrogant people, but, to me at least, it is the ultimate arrogance to think that you know enough about any subject that you will not discuss it.  Throw in empathy for your fellow human being and the realization that your fellow human being may have a wholly valid perspective* that may seem unreasonable in your eyes.  That's how perspective works: it takes into account other people's eyes.

I love these words:

"presents their frame with intent to discuss"

 

* Definition of perspective from the Cambridge dictionary:

perspective

[ C/U ] a particular way of viewing things that depends on one’sexperience and personality:

[ C ] He brings a new perspective to the job.
[ C ] From a social perspective, I am very much a liberal, although my economicpolicies are very conservative.

[ C/U ] Perspective also means the ability to consider things inrelation to one another accurately and fairly:

[ U ] With more maturity and experience, you will gradually acquire perspective.
in perspective

If something is in perspective, it is considered as part of acomplete situation so that you have an accurate and fairunderstanding of it:

Let's try to talk about both sides of the issue and put it in perspective.
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@Dan Warnick  my degree is in Sociology, and I have a Liberal Arts education.  Your observations above are worth noting.

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3 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

@Dan Warnick  my degree is in Sociology, and I have a Liberal Arts education.  Your observations above are worth noting.

My background is not in sociology; do you see anything about my perspective I could improve? 

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6 minutes ago, mthebold said:

My background is not in sociology; do you see anything about my perspective I could improve? 

Heck no, you are far better than I am at dissecting and deconstructing assorted narratives. All I would suggest is to keep questioning and poking around intellectually, you seem pretty skilled at it.

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