China Car Sales Plummet: Can Musk Unshovel His Groundbreaking?

(edited)

Sounds like a horrible time to compete with China's SOEs on auto sales. Who do you think the Chinese public support, Chinese automakers, or Tesla?

Without China, what will Tesla do?

China's idea is to allow foreign carmakers access to their markets but without the benefits of Chinese firms that receive subsidies, low-interest loans, and without crippling non-tariff barriers.

Trump better say no thanks! 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-09/china-s-car-sales-just-fell-for-first-time-in-more-than-20-years

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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Tesla looks to do fine in China. Did you hear what Munro was saying about it? Car sales are falling just about everywhere but EV sales are expanding rapidly.

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On 1/9/2019 at 4:31 AM, DA? said:

Tesla looks to do fine in China. Did you hear what Munro was saying about it? Car sales are falling just about everywhere but EV sales are expanding rapidly.

 

Beyond the Tesla bubble: The future of electric cars is being scripted in China

Elon Musk thinks the next Tesla CEO could be Chinese. It’s a good bet.

I really wish you were correct, as stated in other blogs, I love the look, performance, environmental benefits, comfort, luxury, and many other attributes of Tesla EVs. However, decades (generations) of uneven, non-reciprocal trade with China's totalitarian government has led to the current fatally-flawed economic thinking. The U.S. Dollar is the center international currency, which has established a love-hate relationship among dictators and democracies around the globe. Abuse of the dollar has led to economic collapse, only "papered over" to avert disaster. The time is nearing when the Chinese will push to internationalize the Renminbi, as they seek to replicate America's printing press sanction and reward mentality. 

Will you trust your retirement savings, corporate reserves, or children's college fund to the RMB? 

Seignorage is amazing! It costs America $0.165 to create a $100 note. Social programs present Americans with these notes, which make their way to China and the rest of the world through Amazon, Walmart, and every other retailer. More than 60% of America's paper currency is traded outside of America. Yet, technology and QE has enabled the Fed and Treasury to create much more spending than actual currency. 

So, when China, Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea, and many other nations find a way to kick the underpinnings out from under the dollar, all the fanfare and utopian dreams will end. Communism and totalitarianism are waiting for the leader of the Free World to collapse. Americans appear willing to expedite that collapse.

Unfortunately for Tesla, Teslia, Tisla, or what-ever the Chinese knock-off variant will be named, it will certainly perform much better than the namesake "Tesla," until it dies. 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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17 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Beyond the Tesla bubble: The future of electric cars is being scripted in China

Elon Musk thinks the next Tesla CEO could be Chinese. It’s a good bet.

I really wish you were correct, as stated in other blogs, I love the look, performance, environmental benefits, comfort, luxury, and many other attributes of Tesla EVs. However, decades (generations) of uneven, non-reciprocal trade with China's totalitarian government has led to the current fatally-flawed economic thinking. The U.S. Dollar is the center international currency, which has established a love-hate relationship among dictators and democracies around the globe. Abuse of the dollar has led to economic collapse, only "papered over" to avert disaster. The time is nearing when the Chinese will push to internationalize the Renminbi, as they seek to replicate America's printing press sanction and reward mentality. 

Will you trust your retirement savings, corporate reserves, or children's college fund to the RMB? 

Seignorage is amazing! It costs America $0.165 to create a $100 note. Social programs present Americans with these notes, which make their way to China and the rest of the world through Amazon, Walmart, and every other retailer. More than 60% of America's paper currency is traded outside of America. Yet, technology and QE has enabled the Fed and Treasury to create much more spending than actual currency. 

So, when China, Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea, and many other nations find a way to kick the underpinnings out from under the dollar, all the fanfare and utopian dreams will end. Communism and totalitarianism are waiting for the leader of the Free World to collapse. Americans appear willing to expedite that collapse.

Unfortunately for Tesla, Teslia, Tisla, or what-ever the Chinese knock-off variant will be named, it will certainly perform much better than the namesake "Tesla," until it dies. 

Frankly I don't trust any country. As long as a more sustainable world is helped along I don't give a dam if one company survives or a different one.

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(edited)

1 hour ago, DA? said:

Frankly I don't trust any country. As long as a more sustainable world is helped along I don't give a dam if one company survives or a different one.

Thank you for being frank, but I cannot disagree with you more. 

Freedom of the press ensures that the abuse of every other freedom can be known, can be challenged, and even defeated.  Where a free press is imperiled, muzzled or banned altogether, every other freedom is limited too, and democracy itself threatened. ~Kofi Annan

Perhaps you have never lived under communism, traveled to areas of extreme poverty, or worn a mask every day due to poor air quality. Perhaps, you have never been held against your will, threatened with your life, or enslaved in a coercive hard labor environment. 

Your comment demonstrates the exact problem with liberalism; liberals care only about "virtue signaling;" wherein, what they think others will see in them is the only important reason for their existence. You care about your "sustainability" agenda more than the lives of the 600,000 Rohingyas escaping Myanmar, the human trafficking in Laos, or the sex tourism in Thailand. Even the 1/3 of the thousands of women and girls who are raped, murdered and molested on their way to the American border are unimportant to your agenda. 

I can, but will not, tell you how horrifying it is to witness first-hand the atrocities occurring in China and Asia. My life would not be safe if I did. Yet, you regard the suffering of others acceptable because you want EV use to succeed, regardless. 

You are truly misguided and demonstrate that extreme leftist thinking is a mental disorder.  

 https://www.rfa.org/english/

https://www.un.org/press/en/2001/sgsm7787.doc.htm

 

 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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I am curious, please give a hint of the atrocities that you have witnessed in China. No need to go into too much details.  From most of what I see on youtube, the major cities in China are fantastic and even safer than American cities 

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(edited)

37 minutes ago, Hotone said:

I am curious, please give a hint of the atrocities that you have witnessed in China. No need to go into too much details.  From most of what I see on youtube, the major cities in China are fantastic and even safer than American cities 

YouTube is forbidden in China, they use YouKu, the state-sanctioned and controlled service. Maybe you can look it up on Google, Oh...no, they use Baidu, which controls all content. Try asking a Chinese friend on Twitter to see what they say, oops! WeChat! Clearly, reaching out to a FaceBook friend, darn, RenRen! Or, you can ask the Uyghurs, Tibetans, Inner Mongolians, Hong Kongians, or just look to Taiwan for some answers. There is a great deal to say, so just Google "China Disappears" to get some ideas. "Hot One," you are a Newbie with one post. Hmm. It is the Year of the Pig in China, be careful with your posts.  

Read the Kofi Annan quote above again. 

Then click here, and here!

Finally, consider the route America is taking. 

#metoo = suspension of Due Process in lieu of "We Believe Her!" 

Climate Science is Settled! If you state otherwise, you are shut down from all media. 

Any conversation about "undocumented workers" means you are a bonafide racist! 

Socialism is thriving in America, even in the face of obvious evil and historical human catastrophe. You do not need more than Google to find examples of Ghengis Kahn, Mao, Stalin, Hitler...Dueterte, Maduro, Guevera, Castro, Kim Jung Un...too many to cite. 

Not all of these men are communists, but they share a common goal!

Edited by Microbio-glutonist

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(edited)

3 hours ago, Hotone said:

I am curious, please give a hint of the atrocities that you have witnessed in China

One of the dumbest statements I've heard lately. Ever heard of the Cultural Revolution? What makes you think he wasn't alive during that time?

 

3 hours ago, Hotone said:

From most of what I see on youtube

There's your problem

Edited by shadowkin
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12 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Thank you for being frank, but I cannot disagree with you more. 

Freedom of the press ensures that the abuse of every other freedom can be known, can be challenged, and even defeated.  Where a free press is imperiled, muzzled or banned altogether, every other freedom is limited too, and democracy itself threatened. ~Kofi Annan

Perhaps you have never lived under communism, traveled to areas of extreme poverty, or worn a mask every day due to poor air quality. Perhaps, you have never been held against your will, threatened with your life, or enslaved in a coercive hard labor environment. 

Your comment demonstrates the exact problem with liberalism; liberals care only about "virtue signaling;" wherein, what they think others will see in them is the only important reason for their existence. You care about your "sustainability" agenda more than the lives of the 600,000 Rohingyas escaping Myanmar, the human trafficking in Laos, or the sex tourism in Thailand. Even the 1/3 of the thousands of women and girls who are raped, murdered and molested on their way to the American border are unimportant to your agenda. 

I can, but will not, tell you how horrifying it is to witness first-hand the atrocities occurring in China and Asia. My life would not be safe if I did. Yet, you regard the suffering of others acceptable because you want EV use to succeed, regardless. 

You are truly misguided and demonstrate that extreme leftist thinking is a mental disorder.  

 https://www.rfa.org/english/

https://www.un.org/press/en/2001/sgsm7787.doc.htm

 

 

Err, not sure where you are coming from with this. Because I want sustainable transport I don't give a dam about any other issue? How did you come to that?

I've had guns pulled on me in a number of countries this includes the USA. Injustice is everywhere.

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5 hours ago, Hotone said:

I am curious, please give a hint of the atrocities that you have witnessed in China. No need to go into too much details.  From most of what I see on youtube, the major cities in China are fantastic and even safer than American cities 

I think I've watched similar videos about North Korea!

 

Seriously though, how clueless can you be?

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13 hours ago, DA? said:

Frankly I don't trust any country. As long as a more sustainable world is helped along I don't give a dam if one company survives or a different one.

And, then you said,

"Err, not sure where you are coming from with this. Because I want sustainable transport I don't give a dam about any other issue? How did you come to that?

I've had guns pulled on me in a number of countries this includes the USA. Injustice is everywhere."

My Response:

You are back peddling and being disingenuous. Your earlier disregard for humanity is illustrated in your flippant remarks; as long as you get what you want, you don't give a dam about how it is achieved. Typical liberal. I don't know your situation, but it is concerning that wherever you go people want to shoot you. Hmm...

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3 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

And, then you said,

"Err, not sure where you are coming from with this. Because I want sustainable transport I don't give a dam about any other issue? How did you come to that?

I've had guns pulled on me in a number of countries this includes the USA. Injustice is everywhere."

My Response:

You are back peddling and being disingenuous. Your earlier disregard for humanity is illustrated in your flippant remarks; as long as you get what you want, you don't give a dam about how it is achieved. Typical liberal. I don't know your situation, but it is concerning that wherever you go people want to shoot you. Hmm...

Did you actually read what I wrote or did you read what you thought I wrote? What I said is basically I don't give a dam what COMPANY goes broke ie Tesla as long as companies make sustainable transport. How do your thought processes work?

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(edited)

21 minutes ago, DA? said:

Did you actually read what I wrote or did you read what you thought I wrote? What I said is basically I don't give a dam what COMPANY goes broke ie Tesla as long as companies make sustainable transport. How do your thought processes work?

You're saying as long as you get what you want, you don't GIVE A DAM how it is achieved. 

I think it is pretty clear. Typical Liberal. 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist

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6 hours ago, Hotone said:

I am curious, please give a hint of the atrocities that you have witnessed in China. No need to go into too much details.  From most of what I see on youtube, the major cities in China are fantastic and even safer than American cities 

OK so if you go to London, or Paris, or whatever major tourist city in the worl, the places you would most likely be in(the tourist) they are beautifully maintained and pretty much crime free. Get out of those "protected areas" and you will soon experience the reality of those places, not the scripted controlled sight seeing areas. China has a long history of human rights abuses, as you should be well aware of now. Remember Tienanmen square? That was nothing. Prisoners used as slave labor is nothing. Remember, they are communists, and they will take you and your family away in the night and no one will ever know what happened to you. And no one will question it either. No one in the Communist governments around the world is held responsible for any atrocities they perpetrate on their people. Why you ask? because they control the press and every other aspect of life on their soil. Sure, occasionally something gets leaked out but can you imagine....

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Just now, SERWIN said:

OK so if you go to London, or Paris, or whatever major tourist city in the worl, the places you would most likely be in(the tourist) they are beautifully maintained and pretty much crime free. Get out of those "protected areas" and you will soon experience the reality of those places, not the scripted controlled sight seeing areas. China has a long history of human rights abuses, as you should be well aware of now. Remember Tienanmen square? That was nothing. Prisoners used as slave labor is nothing. Remember, they are communists, and they will take you and your family away in the night and no one will ever know what happened to you. And no one will question it either. No one in the Communist governments around the world is held responsible for any atrocities they perpetrate on their people. Why you ask? because they control the press and every other aspect of life on their soil. Sure, occasionally something gets leaked out but can you imagine....

And do you really believe everything on U-Tube?....lol

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9 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

You're saying as long as you get what you want, you don't GIVE A DAM how it is achieved. 

I think it is pretty clear. Typical Liberal. 

As I thought.

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4 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

DA? :) 

Your comment showed my point of your ability to read what I wrote but to a totally ignore it's meaning.

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6 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

DA? :) 

Give it up, Microbio, you are fencing with the handler of an Al bot.  

This particular bot has lived on five continents, speaks a dozen languages, is currently sitting in a very sleepy town in the south of France  (being the only Englishman, with no explanation of what he is doing there), knows everything about everything, and now tells us that he goes to America and has "guns pulled on him."  I have lived in America for decades and nobody has ever "pulled a gun" on me.  I am a (very) Teutonic white guy; I have walked around in what are described as the worst black neighborhoods of New York and Boston  (OK, not Baltimore, where nobody walks around), and nobody dreams of touching me.  I go into all-black restaurants for a nice lunch where I am the only white man to set foot inside in the last three decades, and am warmly greeted.  Nobody "pulls guns."  Those types of comments are just ridiculous. Bots make those kinds of comments, to stir up hassle and animosity on the Boards.  They describe events that do not occur.  Those are fantasies of bot handlers. 

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(edited)

On 1/11/2019 at 11:19 PM, Microbio-glutonist said:

YouTube is forbidden in China, they use YouKu, the state-sanctioned and controlled service. Maybe you can look it up on Google, Oh...no, they use Baidu, which controls all content. Try asking a Chinese friend on Twitter to see what they say, oops! WeChat! Clearly, reaching out to a FaceBook friend, darn, RenRen! Or, you can ask the Uyghurs, Tibetans, Inner Mongolians, Hong Kongians, or just look to Taiwan for some answers. There is a great deal to say, so just Google "China Disappears" to get some ideas. "Hot One," you are a Newbie with one post. Hmm. It is the Year of the Pig in China, be careful with your posts.  

Read the Kofi Annan quote above again. 

Then click here, and here!

Finally, consider the route America is taking. 

#metoo = suspension of Due Process in lieu of "We Believe Her!" 

Climate Science is Settled! If you state otherwise, you are shut down from all media. 

Any conversation about "undocumented workers" means you are a bonafide racist! 

Socialism is thriving in America, even in the face of obvious evil and historical human catastrophe. You do not need more than Google to find examples of Ghengis Kahn, Mao, Stalin, Hitler...Dueterte, Maduro, Guevera, Castro, Kim Jung Un...too many to cite. 

Not all of these men are communists, but they share a common goal!

I have been traveling a bit and when I do, I totally depend on Google, Maps, YouTube, Translate, WhatsApp, Airbnb and Uber.  I have been thinking about visiting China, but you are right, it's a shame that I can't use any of these tools (except Airbnb).  I can't read Chinese, so I can't use the China equivalent tools and that holds me back from making a trip. Still, I wouldn't call that an atrocity.  

On the other hand, I do believe what I see on youtube, and I follow the travel guides and Vlogs for sightseeing tips and dining.  I was just wondering what atrocities you have actually seen firsthand; that's all. 

Edited by Hotone
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19 hours ago, SERWIN said:

And do you really believe everything on U-Tube?....lol

 

On 1/10/2019 at 11:49 PM, Microbio-glutonist said:

Thank you for being frank, but I cannot disagree with you more. 

Freedom of the press ensures that the abuse of every other freedom can be known, can be challenged, and even defeated.  Where a free press is imperiled, muzzled or banned altogether, every other freedom is limited too, and democracy itself threatened. ~Kofi Annan

Perhaps you have never lived under communism, traveled to areas of extreme poverty, or worn a mask every day due to poor air quality. Perhaps, you have never been held against your will, threatened with your life, or enslaved in a coercive hard labor environment. 

Your comment demonstrates the exact problem with liberalism; liberals care only about "virtue signaling;" wherein, what they think others will see in them is the only important reason for their existence. You care about your "sustainability" agenda more than the lives of the 600,000 Rohingyas escaping Myanmar, the human trafficking in Laos, or the sex tourism in Thailand. Even the 1/3 of the thousands of women and girls who are raped, murdered and molested on their way to the American border are unimportant to your agenda. 

I can, but will not, tell you how horrifying it is to witness first-hand the atrocities occurring in China and Asia. My life would not be safe if I did. Yet, you regard the suffering of others acceptable because you want EV use to succeed, regardless. 

You are truly misguided and demonstrate that extreme leftist thinking is a mental disorder.  

 https://www.rfa.org/english/

https://www.un.org/press/en/2001/sgsm7787.doc.htm

 

 

Minor point, but China is really fascist. They have a huge "communist" party but are operating a fascist system as is Russia. Both rely on capitalism as the engine for production but it is controlled by cronies at the top of the heap. Xi is president for life. Unfortunately, America is approaching the same destination. It will be there if the Democrats take complete control. 

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5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

 

Minor point, but China is really fascist. They have a huge "communist" party but are operating a fascist system as is Russia. Both rely on capitalism as the engine for production but it is controlled by cronies at the top of the heap. Xi is president for life. Unfortunately, America is approaching the same destination. It will be there if the Democrats take complete control. 

China practices 'socialist' capitalism and American capitalism is controlled by Jews? Not being anti-semitic but they do control Wall Street and in my early days trading the stock market, I have been burned by pump and dump schemes especially by a guy named Greenburg. 

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(edited)

28 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

 

Minor point, but China is really fascist. They have a huge "communist" party but are operating a fascist system as is Russia. Both rely on capitalism as the engine for production but it is controlled by cronies at the top of the heap. Xi is president for life. Unfortunately, America is approaching the same destination. It will be there if the Democrats take complete control. 

Agree with you on many issues you cite. However, having some internal knowledge of the system, it appears from the outside as capitalistic but truly is run by those in Beijing. The communist party does not like "competition," as any totalitarian regime doesn't. You will see where people in high-visibility positions are "disappeared" or are required to make public statements like that of Jack Ma, reaffirming their allegiance to the communist party. Guanxi, the system of social networks and influential relationships which facilitate business and other dealings, is about 95% of the influence over the economy, not capitalism. If Jack Ma falls out of favor with the "party," he is not allowed to move his capital out of the country, because in communist societies, the capital is owned by the state. Ma would be "Disappeared" like so many others. Xi himself runs the risk of losing control. his position is dependent on his ability to keep those around him flush with other people's cash and property. As the Fed reverse QE program and higher interest rates pull liquidity out of the global economy, suckling off the USD will end. 

Trump's trade war is reminding people that China is a socialist and communist nation. America's own corruption and overspending are the ONLY reasons socialism and communism have flourished under Xi and his recent predecessors. Without the willful gullibility of the American people, China would still be the largest LDC in human history.

All this means that as soon as America's left kills the golden goose, the global game is over. 

Without the USD, humanity is in serious trouble. I am the last to want this scenario, and maybe the most alarmist; however, I see the Left going forward with ever greater effort to kill themselves, and humanity along with it.   

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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3 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Agree with you on many issues you cite. However, some internal knowledge of the system, it appears from the outside as capitalistic, but truly is run by those in Beijing. The communist party does not like "competition," as any totalitarian regime doesn't. You will see where people in high-visibility positions are "disappeared" or are required to make public statements like that of Jack Ma, reaffirming their allegiance to the communist party. Guanxi, the system of social networks and influential relationships which facilitate business and other dealings, is about 95% of the influence over the economy, not capitalism. If Jack Ma falls out of favor with the "party," he is not allowed to move his capital out of the country, because in communist societies, the capital is owned by the state. Ma would be "Disappeared" like so many others. Xi himself runs the risk of losing control. his position is dependent on his ability to keep those around him flush with other people's cash and property. As the Fed reverse QE program and higher interest rates pull liquidity out of the global economy, suckling off the USD will end. 

Trump's trade war is reminding people that China is a socialist and communist nation. Corruption and of the overspending are the ONLY reasons socialism and communism have flourished under Xi and his recent predecessors. Without the willful gullibility of the American people, China would still be the largest LDC in human history.

All this means that as soon as America's left kills the golden goose, the global game is over. 

Without the USD, humanity is in serious trouble. I am the last to want this scenario, and maybe the most alarmist; however, I see the Left going forward with ever greater effort to kill themselves, and humanity along with it.   

I think we are both saying the same thing in a different way. Without using capitalism China would not be as wealthy as it is now. Our middle class is shrinking while China's seems to be increasing. Is this incorrect? The freedoms in China seem to be declining rapidly as social controls rapidly tighten. Is that correct? 

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(edited)

On 1/12/2019 at 10:12 AM, Hotone said:

China practices 'socialist' capitalism and American capitalism is controlled by Jews? Not being anti-semitic but they do control Wall Street and in my early days trading the stock market, I have been burned by pump and dump schemes especially by a guy named Greenburg. 

I have not made a study of actual Jewish controls. I think the main thing they control is Hollywood and I am somewhat familiar with that. I would appreciate some references about Wall Street control, publishing, journalism etc. I have had many good Jews in my life and some that were not so good. Sid Roth is a Christian Jew that runs my favorite religious program. Most Jews I have known were irreligious. 

Edited by ronwagn

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