Plants are Dying

And then we have these...

https://phys.org/news/2017-08-species-amazon.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-08-31/nearly-400-new-species-discovered-in-the-amazon-rainforest

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/amazon-brazil-new-species-discovered-spd/

So a whack of stuff is being discovered daily and 'they' are already worried about it becoming extinct...although it seemed to be doing fine when it was discovered.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

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3 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And then we have these...

https://phys.org/news/2017-08-species-amazon.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-08-31/nearly-400-new-species-discovered-in-the-amazon-rainforest

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/amazon-brazil-new-species-discovered-spd/

So a whack of stuff is being discovered daily and 'they' are already worried about it becoming extinct...although it seemed to be doing fine when it was discovered.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

I get what you are trying to say, but my understanding is that we actually have no idea what it will do to the earths eco system if / when many plants and insects die. I don't understand the need to ridicule this. 

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I am only ridiculing the one sided approach. Yes, plants, insects and insects are going extinct every day, and have been doing so for millenia. By the same token, new species of each are being discovered regularly.

I am simply pointing out the biased, one sided reporting. I am not making light of the issue.

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1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

we actually have no idea what it will do to the earths eco system if / when many plants and insects die.

We kind of do: the last mass extinction event wiped out what was it, 90% of all species, plant and animals or 99%. The Earth survived and new species emerged including our very own.

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(edited)

5 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

We kind of do: the last mass extinction event wiped out what was it, 90% of all species, plant and animals or 99%. The Earth survived and new species emerged including our very own.

That's a bleak outlook. I wonder what will emerge after the next mass extinction... AI? 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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(edited)

10 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I am only ridiculing the one sided approach. Yes, plants, insects and insects are going extinct every day, and have been doing so for millenia. By the same token, new species of each are being discovered regularly.

I am simply pointing out the biased, one sided reporting. I am not making light of the issue.

My point is just that unless new species emerge then we are headed for a bleak future... 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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14 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

That's a bleak outlook. I wonder what will emerge after the next mass extinction... AI? 

I honestly hope we go extinct before we develop general AI, to be honest. I don't think any of us or our children or grandchildren will be around for the next mass extinction event. Kind of a pity, I'd love to see what happens...

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In the rush to capitalize on the popularity of red and golden delicious apples, farmers yanked thousands of varieties to over produce those two varieties. The land grant university near me put out a similar report to the New Scientist story, and I'll say they claimed at least 600 apple varieties were extinct. Then they got funding and a doctoral candidate went out and found about 700 species that were hiding in plain sight behind barns, on lonely hilltops, etc. In fact some of those are quite popular now, and the red delicious are being yanked… 

Bottom line, the biosphere is diverse and constantly changing. With or without man, billions of species will try the life lotto and fail. 99.99999% of ALL species to date have gone extinct. But that stat doesn't garner headlines and grant funding. 

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Not surprised when reading reports  from left leaning news sites proclaiming another man made crisis and to finger the blame on CO2 climate change when in fact too many people on this planet is the root cause. Too much pesticide/ herbicide use, land degradation/ development / habitat loss ,invasive species/ diseases , selective farming, and more.

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19 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I am only ridiculing the one sided approach. Yes, plants, insects and insects are going extinct every day, and have been doing so for millenia. By the same token, new species of each are being discovered regularly.

I am simply pointing out the biased, one sided reporting. I am not making light of the issue.

Douglas, 

From your posts I gather you have been around the world drilling for oil. My guess is that you have also been to Africa and South America. I have - and therefore I can say without doubt the IOC pollution in places where they can get away with it is atrocious and not conducive to bio-diversity. IOCs could do much more to minimize pollution. And therefore this "species have been dying for millenia" sounds like a red herring to me. 

ps. I consider myself pro-oil; at the very least a realist that know that oil will be part of our society for many years to come, but that doesn't I have to defend things which are blatantly wrong. Balance is needed. 

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20 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

. I don't think any of us or our children or grandchildren will be around for the next mass extinction event. Kind of a pity, I'd love to see what happens...

don't underestimate medical science. 

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Hah, true. But then I'm not sure I want to stick around just to see what happens. You can never make some people happy and I'm one of these. :)

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22 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

 I don't think any of us or our children or grandchildren will be around for the next mass extinction event. Kind of a pity, I'd love to see what happens...

I've formulated a proven theory that climate-induced dengue fever will kill 97% of the population within 12 years unless scientists and heroic politicians can raise $200 Trillion dollars via Carbon Taxes on all Western countries.  Because the science is settled that high carbon taxes kill mosquitoes on contact.  

I can provide more details after I finish setting up the tax-deductible Go Fund Me site.

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2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Douglas, 

From your posts I gather you have been around the world drilling for oil. My guess is that you have also been to Africa and South America. I have - and therefore I can say without doubt the IOC pollution in places where they can get away with it is atrocious and not conducive to bio-diversity. IOCs could do much more to minimize pollution. And therefore this "species have been dying for millenia" sounds like a red herring to me. 

ps. I consider myself pro-oil; at the very least a realist that know that oil will be part of our society for many years to come, but that doesn't I have to defend things which are blatantly wrong. Balance is needed. 

Rasmus,

Yes, I've done my time in Brazil, Angola and Congo. I was younger and generally enjoyed every minute of it.

Is it fair to single out the IOC's for the 'atrocious' pollution in these areas? Sure, things could always be done better, but that is always the case. Often the IOC is required to partner with the national oil company and operate under their environmental rules, statutes and laws...as a minimum. Should they operate at the leading edge of environmental technology and practice? That requires additional personnel, equipment and money.

Keep in mind that many of these areas do not have electricity on a regular basis, fresh water, sewage treatment, etc...

You could make a similar argument about low pay and labor laws in the textile industries in Asia. By 'western' standards these are unacceptable. But if the international clothing brands are forced to leave due to political correctness...the locals would not have ANY jobs or means to support their families. Which is the worst scenario?

It is always problematic to put Western values from developed countries to the under developed world.

Perhaps if you could describe the 'atrocious' pollution you have seen an attributed to IOC's, I could provide a better response.

As an aside, when I was in Brazil back in the mid-80's, Guanabara Bay, which Rio de Janeiro is built around, was the most polluted waterway in the world. This was not due to the shipyards or the oil industry, this was due to the raw sewage being pumped into the bay. Kind of takes the shine of of Ipanema and Copacobana beaches.

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(edited)

11 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Is it fair to single out the IOC's for the 'atrocious' pollution in these areas? Sure, things could always be done better, but that is always the case. Often the IOC is required to partner with the national oil company and operate under their environmental rules, statutes and laws...as a minimum. Should they operate at the leading edge of environmental technology and practice? That requires additional personnel, equipment and money.

To an extent yes. The place I have most intimate knowledge of is Nigeria and without a shadow of doubt there IOCs could easily do much more. 

 

11 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

It is always problematic to put Western values from developed countries to the under developed world.

why is it unfair to expect western values and operating practices from western companies? 

Everywhere I have been in Africa and South America people are the same as here - they just want to make a living for their families. 

11 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Perhaps if you could describe the 'atrocious' pollution you have seen an attributed to IOC's, I could provide a better response.

as mentioned above - I have worked a lot in Nigeria. Pollution there is legendary (and no, it cannot be blamed on NNPC; NNPC just goes with flow). 

 

11 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You could make a similar argument about low pay and labor laws in the textile industries in Asia. By 'western' standards these are unacceptable. But if the international clothing brands are forced to leave due to political correctness...the locals would not have ANY jobs or means to support their families. Which is the worst scenario?

I do make a similar argument. And I try to put my money where my mouth is and to the extent possible buy local produce and products. I am not perfect, but I try. 

If consumers around the world would be willing to pay the price that comes with labor laws then the Asian textile industry would be transformed quickly. 

p.s. I work with the offshore indsutry although not offshore. 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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12 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Yes, I've done my time in Brazil, Angola and Congo. I was younger and generally enjoyed every minute of it.

BTW - I like Africa and South America as well. 

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1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Because the science is settled that high carbon taxes kills mosquitoes on contact.  

This is so deliciously ridiculous. Thanks, Tom!

22 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

To an extent yes. The place I have most intimate knowledge of is Nigeria and without a shadow of doubt there IOCs could easily do much more. 

I've found, regrettably, that no company anywhere in the world would willingly go the extra mile to make its business safer for people and nature. They have to be made to go it. Which is not to strip them of responsibility, of course. It's just another sad fact of corporate life. If a company can save a dollar it will save that dollar whatever the risks. I would think they know better after Deepwater Horizon but I'm not convinced they do.

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1 minute ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I've found, regrettably, that no company anywhere in the world would willingly go the extra mile to make its business safer for people and nature. They have to be made to go it. Which is not to strip them of responsibility, of course. It's just another sad fact of corporate life. If a company can save a dollar it will save that dollar whatever the risks. I would think they know better after Deepwater Horizon but I'm not convinced they do.

Of course they don't. Business are for profit. End of. 

This is why we must demand western operating practices from western companies. If we would do that I think that we would actually convert a large chunk of "oil-haters" to moderates. If oil companies would live up to their grand statements the oil industry would have a much better reputation and we wouldn't need all these red herring arguments. 

All of us in the sensible club needs to realize that we must also make demands on the oil industry. No, we have a responsibillity to do this so that the industry survives. 

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22 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

We kind of do: the last mass extinction event wiped out what was it, 90% of all species, plant and animals or 99%. The Earth survived and new species emerged including our very own.

It’s quite ironic that the brown soup which is supposedly causing global warming and killing of plant species comes from plants and animals (species) which died before the dinosaurs disappeared.

Seems to be a completely natural scenario which keeps cycling.

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4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Douglas, 

From your posts I gather you have been around the world drilling for oil. My guess is that you have also been to Africa and South America. I have - and therefore I can say without doubt the IOC pollution in places where they can get away with it is atrocious and not conducive to bio-diversity. IOCs could do much more to minimize pollution. And therefore this "species have been dying for millenia" sounds like a red herring to me. 

ps. I consider myself pro-oil; at the very least a realist that know that oil will be part of our society for many years to come, but that doesn't I have to defend things which are blatantly wrong. Balance is needed. 

Most who have been on an deep sea vessel will be familiar with this table, the 12Nm rule is still in force but most drilling rigs have far more stringent waste rules in place, in short nothing goes overboard.

Waste or garbage is the least of worries, the drilling industry has taken huge steps in cutting the release of well bore cuttings being dumped at sea. There are many other aspects of “waste” that is covered but not really made available to the public or the public are not interested in seeing the whole picture.

http://www.imo.org/en/About/Conventions/ListOfConventions/Pages/International-Convention-for-the-Prevention-of-Pollution-from-Ships-(MARPOL).aspx

The MARPOL table which by law must be available and posted all over vessels could probably be updated as it’s ambiguous at best.

368B2210-513F-4C82-87FE-869013F1FA72.jpeg

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If the international community wants to force 'western' companies to adopt 'western' practices everywhere on the planet, you may as well hand over every contract in Africa, Asia and the Middle East to the Chinese and Asian companies.,They will NEVER adopt these practices and will underbid on EVERY contract!

I had to laugh years ago when some British firm got hauled into a British court for paying bribes in West Africa. That is how business is done there!

Once again, trying to transfer Western values to other cultures is doomed from the start.

 

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1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

This is so deliciously ridiculous. Thanks, Tom!

I've found, regrettably, that no company anywhere in the world would willingly go the extra mile to make its business safer for people and nature. They have to be made to go it. Which is not to strip them of responsibility, of course. It's just another sad fact of corporate life. If a company can save a dollar it will save that dollar whatever the risks. I would think they know better after Deepwater Horizon but I'm not convinced they do.

Marina, 

I am not meaning to be disrespectful in the least! But do you actually know what happened on the Deepwater Horizon? I hope you are not taking your information from the movie or the PC correct witch hunt that followed the event. Both were so inaccurate as to be laughable. 

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No, I followed events as they happened. 

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(edited)

30 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

If the international community wants to force 'western' companies to adopt 'western' practices everywhere on the planet, you may as well hand over every contract in Africa, Asia and the Middle East to the Chinese and Asian companies.,They will NEVER adopt these practices and will underbid on EVERY contract!

How many chinese / Asian UDW drillships are there? How many capable Chinese / Asian offshore contractors are there? Who taugth the Asians do offshore construction? Who is pushing the use of autonomous vehicles in offshore ? 

30 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I had to laugh years ago when some British firm got hauled into a British court for paying bribes in West Africa. That is how business is done there!

Just say no. It is possible. And yes, western companies would loose a lot of contracts, but not all.

The FCPA and UK anti bribery act are real pieces of legislation for a reason. And look at "lava Jato"... you think the companies involved didn't know what was going on? 

30 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Once again, trying to transfer Western values to other cultures is doomed from the start.

that is not what I said. I said operate to the same standard world wide; which something all companies in offshore say they do. They should just put their money where their mouth is. 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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