Recommended Posts

How about R&D outside of academia? Foreign students have a motive to stay in academia and the States. Universities love them for the higher tuition. American students tend to want to get to work, make money and pay off those damn loans.

Not all R&D happens in a university lab!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How about R&D outside of academia? Foreign students have a motive to stay in academia and the States. Universities love them for the higher tuition. American students tend to want to get to work, make money and pay off those damn loans.

Not all R&D happens in a university lab!

Agreed, and fair point!

Again, just personal experience, so anecdotal. The various companies I've been close enough to to see a significant portion of their R&D - lots are defense (pretty much exclusively US born), Tech (mixed bag, lots of both foreign nationals and US, however much more balanced than academia, slanting US nationals),  Renewable Energy (again mixed. Pretty even, might slant foreign but too close to say), FF Industry (mixed but heavily lean US nationals. Also many Venezuelans and other south americans. Also a fair portion of Indians, few other Asians, but those were exclusively Chinese), and government based (pretty exclusively US nationals).

With that, not sure my sample sizes are large enough to draw many conclusions, especially with the variety of results above. Take what you will...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a substantial number of STEM curriculum AMERICAN students. The American university system has faults, just as others do, but as usual, the mainstream media enjoy bashing anything ‘American’.

Getting off of my soapbox, consider this. Each State in America has at least two accredited universities or colleges (I am from Colorado and off the top of my head I can identify seven in Colorado...). At a minimum there are 100 accredited universities in the US. How many other countries can boast that number?

Granted, not every US university or college concentrates on a STEM curriculum, but a large percentage are either solely focused on STEM studies or offer STEM focused degrees.

It is not due to foreign students in graduate programs who have provided the knowledge base which has kept the US in the forefront of R&D, rather it has been those lowly B.Sc holders who are providing the technical expertise to industry R&D shops.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

There are a substantial number of STEM curriculum AMERICAN students. The American university system has faults, just as others do, but as usual, the mainstream media enjoy bashing anything ‘American’.

Getting off of my soapbox, consider this. Each State in America has at least two accredited universities or colleges (I am from Colorado and off the top of my head I can identify seven in Colorado...). At a minimum there are 100 accredited universities in the US. How many other countries can boast that number?

Granted, not every US university or college concentrates on a STEM curriculum, but a large percentage are either solely focused on STEM studies or offer STEM focused degrees.

It is not due to foreign students in graduate programs who have provided the knowledge base which has kept the US in the forefront of R&D, rather it has been those lowly B.Sc holders who are providing the technical expertise to industry R&D shops.

54% Master degrees and 44% Doctoral degrees in STEM subjects earned by foreign students in US 2016-2017 academic year per CRS 

Edited by Marcin2
Typo
  • Like 1
  • Great Response! 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vast majority of them from China and India. 72% of them stayed in US for 10 years After doctoral degree. These are the students crucial for US R&D , but Trump wants them out of US by his racist policies. They would be very good devouted US citizens unless we will prevent them from staying in US. If they would not stay in US some of them would go to European R&D but most to China as Europe would not be able to absorb them.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They were NEVER told that being a student guaranteed them a job, or an ability to reside, in the US!

The reason for so many foreign students remaining in academia, in the US, after their undergraduate degree is not so much to further their studies as it is a mechanism whereby they can avoid going home!

These students are NOT “crucial” for American R&D! Where do you get this nonsense? If these students were critical to R&D programs, why do their respective countries let them ‘contribute’ to American R&D instead of bringing them home to progress their own countries?

You call Trump a racist simply because he wants to limit the number of foreign graduate students taking up slots in the American education system or preventing these students from over-staying their visas. How does that make him a racist?

American universities love foreign students as they can charge higher ‘out of state’ tuition AND, since most of these students are sponsored, are guaranteed payment.

Perhaps the countries sending these students to the US should look at upgrading the institutions within their countries.

If these students feel ostracized by US policy, they are more than welcome to relocate to China or Europe. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Vast majority of them from China and India. 72% of them stayed in US for 10 years After doctoral degree. These are the students crucial for US R&D , but Trump wants them out of US by his racist policies. They would be very good devouted US citizens unless we will prevent them from staying in US. If they would not stay in US some of them would go to European R&D but most to China as Europe would not be able to absorb them.

Forest ... trees.  You just don't get it.  You may wish to read this diatribe asserting Chinese racial superiority and the Chinese military's plans to conquer the USA.  Excerpts below, too long to copy the whole speech.

Speech By Comrade Chi Haotian Vice-Chairman Of China's Military Commission - December, 2005

"...As everybody knows, according to the views propagated by the Western scholars, humanity as a whole originated from one single mother in Africa. Therefore no race can claim racial superiority. However, according to the research conducted by most Chinese scholars, the Chinese are different from other races on earth. We did not originate in Africa. Instead, we originated independently in the land of China.  ...

... During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. We all know that on account of our national superiority, during the thriving and prosperous Tang Dynasty our civilization was at the peak of the world. We were the centre of the world civilization, and no other civilization in the world was comparable to ours. Later on, because of our complacency, narrow-mindedness, and the self-enclosure of our own country, we were surpassed by Western civilization, and the centre of the world shifted to the West.  ...

... Our Chinese people are wiser than the Germans because, fundamentally, our race is superior to theirs. As a result, we have a longer history, more people, and larger land area. On this basis, our ancestors left us with the two most essential heritages, which are atheism and great unity. It was Confucius, the founder of our Chinese culture, who gave us these heritages. These two heritages determined that we have a stronger ability to survive than the West. That is why the Chinese race has been able to prosper for so long.  ...

... Many years ago, there was a book titled Yellow Catastrophes. It said that, due to our following the American style of consumption, our limited resources would no longer support the population and society would collapse once our population reaches 1.3 billion. Now our population has already exceeded this limit, and we are now relying on imports to sustain our nation. It's not that we haven't paid attention to this issue. The Ministry of Land Resources is specialized in this issue. But we must understand that the term 'living space' (lebenstraum) is too closely related to Nazi Germany. The reason we don't want to discuss this too openly is to avoid the West's association of us with Nazi Germany, which could in turn reinforce the view that China is a threat. ...

... Therefore, solving the 'issue of America' is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the White race. We the descendants of the Chinese nation are ENTITLED to the possession of the land! It is historical destiny that China and United States will come into unavoidable confrontation on a narrow path and fight. In the long run, the relationship of China and the United States is one of a life-and-death struggle. ...

... Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country. Only by using special means to 'clean up' America will we be able to lead the Chinese people there. Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves.
 
There has been rapid development of modern biological technology, and new bio weapons have been invented one after another. Of course we have not been idle; in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind. We are capable of achieving our purpose of 'cleaning up' America all of a sudden. When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focused instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country. Biological weapons are unprecedented in their ruthlessness, but if the Americans do not die then the Chinese have to die. If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place. According to the computations of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people! Just after the liberation, our yellow land supported nearly 500 million people, while today the official figure of the population is more than 1.3 billion. This yellow land has reached the limit of its capacity. One day, who know how soon it will come, the great collapse will occur any time and more than half of the population will have to go.
 
It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world.   ...

... The central committee believes, as long as we resolve the United States problem at one blow, our domestic problems will all be readily solved. Therefore, our military battle preparation appears to aim at Taiwan, but in fact is aimed at the United States, and the preparation is far beyond the scope of attacking aircraft carriers or satellites. Marxism pointed out that violence is the midwife for the birth of the new society. Therefore war is the midwife for the birth of China's century."

  • Great Response! 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

You may wish to read this diatribe asserting Chinese racial superiority and the Chinese military's plans to conquer the USA.  Excerpts below, too long to copy the whole speech.

Speech By Comrade Chi Haotian Vice-Chairman Of China's Military Commission - December, 2005

P.S.  for the Religion and Guns crowd:

"... Maybe you have now come to understand why we recently decided to further promulgate atheism. If we let theology from the West into China and empty us from the inside, if we let all Chinese people listen to God and follow God, who will obediently listen to us and follow us? If the common people don't believe Comrade Hu Jintao is a qualified leader, begin to question his authority, and want to monitor him, if the religious followers in our society question why we are leading God in churches, can our Party continue to rule China? ..."

  • Great Response! 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Douglas,

These foreign students want to stay in US, indefinitely, just because life in US is much better than in China or India, and will always be.

Their countries of origin cannot "bring them home" cause they do not have any control over them. These students do not want "to contribute" to US or Indian/Chinese R&D, they just prefer to be Americans to have a good life in a free country. Quality of life in US was always the major attraction of foreign migrants. US needs those migrants much more than low skilled people from the South.

I understand the case of national security in R&D but I think a good screening and profiling of each student can tell you whether it is a hard commie or not. And at least all Indians should be kept in US, they are definitely not commies.

And foreign students, scientists do think that Trump policies are racist.

Making large chunks of academic R&D off limits to foreign students, have bad effects, cause they are not sure about their academic prospects in US. I mean in 2 years under current course, everything could become case of national security and off limits to non Americans. That could be a disaster for their careers. But remember they would choose anything outside of US, only out of necessity, cause US would be their 1st choice - mainly not because of quality of R&D but general high quality of life.

Unfortunately I think the trend has already been set, as there is a growing isolationism and suspicion towards foreigners in US, the country changes behind our eyes, just like in 1920s and 1930s.

This atmosphere of suspicion and xenophobia is increased by US authorities that use every case (like the one that started this thread) to peddle propaganda: "Do not trust foreigners, they are all spies".

I know that Trump administration and now Congress are doing this in bipartisan effort, mainly for short term political gains, but these messages become imprinted into US society.

Astonishing proof how far and how quickly that got in this direction, was recent Pentagon veto about further increasing of sanctions against Huawei. Pentagon was against further sanctions against Huawei - because it would further weaken US technology companies.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These ‘students’ are not ENTITLED to become American citizens. Do they, or you, honestly believe that because they were allowed to be educated in the US and because they prefer the American lifestyle as opposed to that in their home country, that America should simply accept them with open arms?

They rest of the world, generally speaking, seems to enjoy disagreeing with everything America does or stands for, they cheer when aircraft crash into American skyscrapers, they feel that it is their right to illegally immigrate to the US and Americans are treated poorly when overseas...and you wonder why Americans are leaning towards isolationism and do not trust foreigners!

The Chinese have never made a secret of their cyber warfare against other countries...yet you think it is somehow unfair to sanction Huawei. Grow up!

Try being an American in the global arena for a year and then come back to me and tell me that Americans are treating foreigners poorly.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Forest ... trees.  You just don't get it.  You may wish to read this diatribe asserting Chinese racial superiority and the Chinese military's plans to conquer the USA.  Excerpts below, too long to copy the whole speech.

Speech By Comrade Chi Haotian Vice-Chairman Of China's Military Commission - December, 2005

"...As everybody knows, according to the views propagated by the Western scholars, humanity as a whole originated from one single mother in Africa. Therefore no race can claim racial superiority. However, according to the research conducted by most Chinese scholars, the Chinese are different from other races on earth. We did not originate in Africa. Instead, we originated independently in the land of China.  ...

... During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. We all know that on account of our national superiority, during the thriving and prosperous Tang Dynasty our civilization was at the peak of the world. We were the centre of the world civilization, and no other civilization in the world was comparable to ours. Later on, because of our complacency, narrow-mindedness, and the self-enclosure of our own country, we were surpassed by Western civilization, and the centre of the world shifted to the West.  ...

... Our Chinese people are wiser than the Germans because, fundamentally, our race is superior to theirs. As a result, we have a longer history, more people, and larger land area. On this basis, our ancestors left us with the two most essential heritages, which are atheism and great unity. It was Confucius, the founder of our Chinese culture, who gave us these heritages. These two heritages determined that we have a stronger ability to survive than the West. That is why the Chinese race has been able to prosper for so long.  ...

... Many years ago, there was a book titled Yellow Catastrophes. It said that, due to our following the American style of consumption, our limited resources would no longer support the population and society would collapse once our population reaches 1.3 billion. Now our population has already exceeded this limit, and we are now relying on imports to sustain our nation. It's not that we haven't paid attention to this issue. The Ministry of Land Resources is specialized in this issue. But we must understand that the term 'living space' (lebenstraum) is too closely related to Nazi Germany. The reason we don't want to discuss this too openly is to avoid the West's association of us with Nazi Germany, which could in turn reinforce the view that China is a threat. ...

... Therefore, solving the 'issue of America' is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the White race. We the descendants of the Chinese nation are ENTITLED to the possession of the land! It is historical destiny that China and United States will come into unavoidable confrontation on a narrow path and fight. In the long run, the relationship of China and the United States is one of a life-and-death struggle. ...

... Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country. Only by using special means to 'clean up' America will we be able to lead the Chinese people there. Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves.
 
There has been rapid development of modern biological technology, and new bio weapons have been invented one after another. Of course we have not been idle; in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind. We are capable of achieving our purpose of 'cleaning up' America all of a sudden. When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focused instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country. Biological weapons are unprecedented in their ruthlessness, but if the Americans do not die then the Chinese have to die. If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place. According to the computations of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people! Just after the liberation, our yellow land supported nearly 500 million people, while today the official figure of the population is more than 1.3 billion. This yellow land has reached the limit of its capacity. One day, who know how soon it will come, the great collapse will occur any time and more than half of the population will have to go.
 
It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world.   ...

... The central committee believes, as long as we resolve the United States problem at one blow, our domestic problems will all be readily solved. Therefore, our military battle preparation appears to aim at Taiwan, but in fact is aimed at the United States, and the preparation is far beyond the scope of attacking aircraft carriers or satellites. Marxism pointed out that violence is the midwife for the birth of the new society. Therefore war is the midwife for the birth of China's century."

How do we know whether this is fake news or not?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Hotone said:

How do we know whether this is fake news or not?  

I cordially invite you (and others) to do your own digging around and draw your own conclusions.  In a couple threads here, I have attached PDFs of various medical research papers.  I have many more, but not trying to hijack the narrative here with my views.  Please, by all means, launch a counter-narrative, and also include docs to bolster your views.

Questioning my narrative is a good start.  Questioning the "official narrative" is another good path toward critical thinking.  Prove me wrong, please.  That is not "trying to prove a negative", that is proper debating.

Go for it.  Happy hunting.

Expect the infection rate graphs next week to go bonkers.  Your mileage may vary.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

Tom, did I trigger sth ?

You linked the piece that I was able only to read to the second verse, I think I stopped somewhere at "humanity comes from single mother in Africa".

I understand that you can collect anything in your free time, Flat Earth memes or the golden thoughts of Nietzsche fans from around the world.

But how it stays within broad on-topic in discussion about attracting of foreign talent into US economy ?

Or not attracting it by recent racial/nationality profiling of foreign students and scientists, call it Asian threat policy.

In science there is quality and quantity.

You need these 10,000 geniuses, science stars each year to do real science, and 490,000 of craftsmen to help them.

The fight is about 10,000 stars, China already has 4,000,000 craftsmen.

Edited by Marcin2
typo
  • Rolling Eye 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

For fun go to any universities website and look at the research groups.

Here is a top chemist from my alma matter:

http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~clive/members.html

Out of 15, 4 are Canadian, 1 is American.

P.S. Clive was from London and studied at Harvard under the legendary Woodward.

http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~clive/biography.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Burns_Woodward

P.S. He taught me organic chem 263; I am literally two degrees of separation from Woodward.

 

 

Edited by Enthalpic
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 1/30/2020 at 7:14 PM, Enthalpic said:

I admit there has to be both sides for a transaction - putting all the blame on one side is foolish.

China is known to import all sorts of illegal shit (rhino horns, bear gall bladders, etc.) without other criminals they wouldn't get it.  However, import of a scientist is not illegal.

Corrupt north American tech company / university employees are no better than a poacher.

I am sure there are all sorts of laws against selling information to foreign countries. Don't these academics sign non disclosure agreements, especially when the work is for the government?

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't these academics sign non disclosure agreements, especially when the work is for the government? ???? When half of the professors teaching in engineering schools hall from place like China Turkey and India and all are looking for consulting gigs on the side, non disclosure agreements mean nothing

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 1/31/2020 at 10:29 PM, 0R0 said:

@Ward Smith

Chilling final quote from the article 

  Quote

Chinese military’s interest in biology as an emerging domain of warfare is guided by strategists who talk about potential “genetic weapons” and the possibility of a “bloodless victory.”

 

  •  

Actually, it is Ironic that the Wuhan Coronavirus is partially selective to male Han Chinese, who have appx. 2.5% of their cells with the target receptor for the virus, as opposed to Han Chinese Women and European males with about 0.5%. So it is more virulent in that group. 

Can you please provide your source? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Vast majority of them from China and India. 72% of them stayed in US for 10 years After doctoral degree. These are the students crucial for US R&D , but Trump wants them out of US by his racist policies. They would be very good devouted US citizens unless we will prevent them from staying in US. If they would not stay in US some of them would go to European R&D but most to China as Europe would not be able to absorb them.

So, are you saying that they have applied for citizenship and been denied. Remember, Trump has only been in office about three years. Also, Trump is not a racist by any means, that is a slander. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 1/29/2020 at 8:19 AM, Ward Smith said:

Don't know how many of you caught This article about a Harvard professor caught taking money from the Chinese (and likely passing them info).

 

On 2/1/2020 at 5:45 AM, SERWIN said:

  Oh my, does this mean to suggest that China knows they aren't smart enough to develop their own technologies, so they steal it now? When has this become an issue?

image.png.8b57df7a97e7d705eff9582566bd1c95.png

There might be mis-recognition among races...... explanation followed.....

7 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Vast majority of them from China and India. 72% of them stayed in US for 10 years After doctoral degree.

In a course "Entrepreneurship in emerging economy" offered by Harvard X, the video stated proudly (roughly) that "India has made it a law that no product is going to have patented right upon reaching India......."

China might have started from learning and copying. But they might have surpassed in technological advancement, to create their own identity in products.

Which country dominates US economy and leading technological transformation of the world?? Who donates the most money into R & D with shared results and patented rights throughout the world?? Japan and may be Europe. This is not stealing, but a smart strategy of leverage. But mankind looks 95% alike regional wise. Are we certain we are accusing a Deer, a Mouse Deer or a Dear Mouse??O.o:$

 

6 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

"...As everybody knows, according to the views propagated by the Western scholars, humanity as a whole originated from one single mother in Africa.

... During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific.

According to history, there were 5 civilizations during the early stage of human development. Hence, there might be 5 origins of mankind, not a singular one. Story of Babel Tower dictates that mankind were separated with different languages, races, and beliefs to prevent the power of unity that reaches Heaven again.

Migration for opportunity and safety during wars was a common scene through out the world. "Wherever reachable by the sea, one will find mankind and Chinese" might not be a misguided phrase.

Other claims might be simply provocative due to misinterpretation during translation or misuse of terms..... what was being used by the author, may I ask?? direct automatic google translate??:o:D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Can you please provide your source? 

Look at the Coronavirus thread, there is a post with a quote from the research. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

4 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I am sure there are all sorts of laws against selling information to foreign countries. Don't these academics sign non disclosure agreements, especially when the work is for the government?

Any patentable information that hasn't been published (Defense doesn't publish) is secret. The knowledge the person holds is their own. You can't tell someone "if you move to China don't be smart."

The beauty of science is that most of it is published; free exchange of information.

Edited by Enthalpic
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 2/1/2020 at 1:01 PM, Marcin2 said:

Tom, another example how we shoot ourselves in a foot.

At least 50,000 Chinese are engaged in R&D in US, the similar number of Americans are engaged in R&D in China.

I do not think that providing a few examples a year in total and tagging it: just the latest in “a massive, long-term campaign to steal U.S. technology.” makes us any good.

The atmosphere of suspision towards ALL Chinese-born (whether citizens for 30 years or not) scientists is perceived in a very negative way among scientistis. Remember that majority of people engaged in top R&D in US are foreign-born.

I am afraid that unintended consequences of this campaign would be that China would be able to attract more foreign talent, especially talent from the United States.

How do you think:

Are US spies or simply dishonest scientists from US being caught in China ?

Sure they are, but they are not making headlines for a month about each such case.

Because long-term planning is more important. Scientists are pedigree of people that need safety and staiblity in order to conduct their everyday duties. They have IQ much above average so you cannot talk to them with MSM simplified language.

The Chinese government and the CCP are entirely clear and open about their goals and means to bring China to lead in science and technology. The US had a similar stance after WWII and actively recruited scientists from around the world. 

The problem with US authorities trying to counter the Chinese nationalist and racist ideology of the CCP is that they can't formulate a test of loyalty. What they can see is that the CCP considers all those of Chinese ethnic origin as having an obligation to the CCP as the embodiment of China. A divine rights of kings argument, which is obviously nonsense. So how do you check for the loyalty of ethnic Chinese? Of course, there is no problem if you understand that most people of intelligence in China and outside, think that the CCP is just a corrupt invader of China and has been reorganizing the country for its own purposes of retaining power and expanding influence elsewhere, or in other words a cancer consuming their country. . 

The CCP uses bribery to entice people into cooperation in conducting R&D within China. Where they can't get the people to move, they try to infiltrate their research with funding and Chinese personnel. As R&D funding is always in short supply, particularly as you move upstream from commercial towards basic science, they have a much easier time recruiting researchers who would otherwise not be able to fund their work.

Others doubting the importance of US R&D and academia being majority foreign need only consider that the percentage of MS and PhD graduates in STEM only fell from well over 60% to the 50-55% today because the millennial generation is larger by over 50% than the Gen X generation that preceded them. Thus could fill in the competitive spots. .

Mathematically there are 7 billion people in the world, with about 50% of them having access to sufficient primary education to bring out talent that can earn a science or tech. graduate degree and therefore practice R&D. That means that there are 10 times more people with such capacity in the world outside the US than within. They can be incorporated into US R&D in their home countries to a large extent, but where cutting edge and leading strategic economic or military fields are concerned, the US NEEDS them to be within the US, just as China does. 

Though I think Trump understands this perfectly, he has to placate his base in order to get the second term where he can implement this as he had stated multiple times. His business advisers most likely are telling him this day in day out.

 

If you ever listen/read to Emperor Xi's dialectic speeches to the party you will understand the nonsensical anti-think and deep paranoia underlying  the party's actions and how far removed it is from the interests of the Chinese people. 

 

  • Great Response! 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

14 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

 The US had a similar stance after WWII and actively recruited scientists from around the world. 

 

 

I would say more like "during WWII great scientists fled to the US as it wasn't an active war zone."

Edited by Enthalpic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Forest ... trees.  You just don't get it.  You may wish to read this diatribe asserting Chinese racial superiority and the Chinese military's plans to conquer the USA.  Excerpts below, too long to copy the whole speech.

Speech By Comrade Chi Haotian Vice-Chairman Of China's Military Commission - December, 2005

"...As everybody knows, according to the views propagated by the Western scholars, humanity as a whole originated from one single mother in Africa. Therefore no race can claim racial superiority. However, according to the research conducted by most Chinese scholars, the Chinese are different from other races on earth. We did not originate in Africa. Instead, we originated independently in the land of China.  ...

... During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. We all know that on account of our national superiority, during the thriving and prosperous Tang Dynasty our civilization was at the peak of the world. We were the centre of the world civilization, and no other civilization in the world was comparable to ours. Later on, because of our complacency, narrow-mindedness, and the self-enclosure of our own country, we were surpassed by Western civilization, and the centre of the world shifted to the West.  ...

... Our Chinese people are wiser than the Germans because, fundamentally, our race is superior to theirs. As a result, we have a longer history, more people, and larger land area. On this basis, our ancestors left us with the two most essential heritages, which are atheism and great unity. It was Confucius, the founder of our Chinese culture, who gave us these heritages. These two heritages determined that we have a stronger ability to survive than the West. That is why the Chinese race has been able to prosper for so long.  ...

... Many years ago, there was a book titled Yellow Catastrophes. It said that, due to our following the American style of consumption, our limited resources would no longer support the population and society would collapse once our population reaches 1.3 billion. Now our population has already exceeded this limit, and we are now relying on imports to sustain our nation. It's not that we haven't paid attention to this issue. The Ministry of Land Resources is specialized in this issue. But we must understand that the term 'living space' (lebenstraum) is too closely related to Nazi Germany. The reason we don't want to discuss this too openly is to avoid the West's association of us with Nazi Germany, which could in turn reinforce the view that China is a threat. ...

... Therefore, solving the 'issue of America' is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the White race. We the descendants of the Chinese nation are ENTITLED to the possession of the land! It is historical destiny that China and United States will come into unavoidable confrontation on a narrow path and fight. In the long run, the relationship of China and the United States is one of a life-and-death struggle. ...

... Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country. Only by using special means to 'clean up' America will we be able to lead the Chinese people there. Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves.
 
There has been rapid development of modern biological technology, and new bio weapons have been invented one after another. Of course we have not been idle; in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind. We are capable of achieving our purpose of 'cleaning up' America all of a sudden. When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focused instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country. Biological weapons are unprecedented in their ruthlessness, but if the Americans do not die then the Chinese have to die. If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place. According to the computations of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people! Just after the liberation, our yellow land supported nearly 500 million people, while today the official figure of the population is more than 1.3 billion. This yellow land has reached the limit of its capacity. One day, who know how soon it will come, the great collapse will occur any time and more than half of the population will have to go.
 
It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world.   ...

... The central committee believes, as long as we resolve the United States problem at one blow, our domestic problems will all be readily solved. Therefore, our military battle preparation appears to aim at Taiwan, but in fact is aimed at the United States, and the preparation is far beyond the scope of attacking aircraft carriers or satellites. Marxism pointed out that violence is the midwife for the birth of the new society. Therefore war is the midwife for the birth of China's century."

This post where Tom Kirkman quotes the CCP's racist diatribe and aims of using bioweapons to kill all Americans - i.e. an explicit policy of genocide, -  so that they can come in and take over is precisely why the US has to remove their tools - i.e. STEM talent from China and keep cooperation with Chinese located R&D efforts away from Western talent.

We should note that China's demographics are already on a terminal course into the future where in 50 years' time there will be 50% fewer Chinese, not because of a lack of resources, but because they had urbanized and their people don't want to have as many children, same as any other urbanized people. The internal collapse they are fearing does not have to happen, they can easily enough trade for their needs in food and energy in a secure trading system where they are subsidiary within a US led coalition that has been doing so for a century, and where China obtained its opportunity to rise.

Instead they speak of taking over the US through genocide to obtain land and resources to expand their race, which won't happen as their collective action as urban individuals is heading in the opposite direction - towards rapid shrinkage of the population. There are only 5 more years of possible increasing Chinese consumption. China's large remaining rural population shows less of an inclination to urbanize than their elders had. There are possibly 200 million more rural people who may move, but the more recent trends are that they go to work in the coastal industrial zones and send their money back home, and once they are sufficiently secure financially they move back to their rural provinces of origin rather than stay. China's agriculture is still extremely labor intensive and still requires substantial industrial ag improvements to allow further mass urbanization on the scale we have been accustomed to in recent decades. It is not yet happening. Theoretically it could with sufficient automation, robofarming if you will, but it isn't. Neither land under cultivation nor crop output have grown substantially since 2010 (till then it was a phenomenal growth, particularly since the early 80s into mid 90's) Possibly this is because of the continued farmland collective ownership structure that inhibits capital intensive land improvement decisions. There is only so much that farm families can afford to finance on their own and only so much that the collective will do with its member's resources when the benefits can't be distributed proportionally to financing.  

 

The Trump "doctrine" is essentially that the US has no interest in continuing securing global trade since the US does not do much of it, nor has it a need for oil or other key resources any  longer. So the US would only consider doing so into the future if it is paid for it in mercantile terms. This is not a hard sell to those who see the geopolitical map as it is (NE Asia and SE Asia). It is a hard sell for Europe, in particular Germany and France, where the entire idea of the union is to form a counterweight against the US, and where EMU as well as the original EU commercial free trade zone, is meant to detach from using the dollar and relying on trade with the US.

China's CCP leadership, as opposed to their people, does not want this pax Americana to continue, but contrary to their dreams of hegemony and babble of China being the actual "center of the world" and planned genocide of America as a means to get there, they can't do any of it and don't have a real reason to. Their fixed trend of shrinking demographics REQUIRES a POLYGLOT America that keeps young with immigration in order to maintain a market for China. It is one of the few places where demand can actually be originated long term. Europe is definitely not it, Nor are SE Asian and N. Asian economies, and India seems set on doing it all internally, so it isn't an inviting market either. They are all contracting demographics and do very poorly integrating immigrants. Most importantly, China's taking over America will not reverse their contracting demographic trend, and is simply counterproductive to Chinese people's interests.. 

Only Africa can be a consumer market of size, but it has little income and its population growth is tapering in line with other regions, and that population is constantly in danger of collapsing in famine as they have not  managed to become self sufficient in food, nor be able to produce sufficient exports to pay for their import of food.  Perhaps someone like the Twitter and Square CEO Jack Dorsey can figure out a way to industrialize and financialize broader Africa, he is far from the only one trying. 

 

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I would say more like "during WWII great scientists fled to the US as is wasn't an active war zone."

The mass recruitment was AFTER the war. It was the experience of the role of European (and other) STEM folks in contributing to the war effort that made it happen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.