notsonice + 1,255 DM December 18, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Its called energy density in transportation is how you move the world forward. Before coal no one moved ANYWHERE or did ANYTHING. Going to Shittier forms of transportation works for a shitty 2nd car, and in places where you can have fixed power infrastructure on short known circuits. Always been true. But the world which connects everything requires power density enabling MORE Of humanity to do what we want allowing a greater percentage of humanity to invent new things which are more efficient at use of resources. Current battery tech is NOT there and until it IS there, talking about "renewables" outside of Pumped Hydro Power is an absurd joke. Going backasswards does not work. The enthusiasm of less maintenance and cheaper transportation is what everyone dreams of... when curbed by reality. Without a universal solution you have no solution. PS: NG is a renewable resource. Oil, nope. Coal: Nope. PPS: Expectation... AKA inside knowledge on how fear drives humanity or inside knowledge of a company or you have nothing. Before coal no one moved ANYWHERE or did ANYTHING.????? horse and buggy, wagon trains sail boats you do know the first railways used horses to pull the wagons canal boats were pulled by mules or horses people moved, just slower before coal, locomotives were fired with wood.......before the steam age was the sail age think back to 1820.......US was feeding England with raw materials ...how many coal powered steamers crossing the Atlantic in the 1820's???? your BS argument is just BS talking about "renewables" outside of Pumped Hydro Power is an absurd joke...... not anymore as solar is the cheapest source of power out there.... and lately the price of solar is falling to the point that solar power is taking over all new power generation Coal ??? backup Oil??? backup and too expensive Nat Gas.....a transition fuel and backup add in batteries and it works to solar and wind ...........Coal is toast and is going into terminal decline as we speak Oil is toast in the next 30 years and then Nat Gas will be last of the fossil fuels to get put out of business only a Luddite believes Coal is the first to come along to power humanity You are just stuck in the Coal Age....... Coal Age is dead Electrified trains......over 100 years old elevators....old school and none powered by coal the rest of the world is now in the Renewables Age EVs can travel 300 miles on a charge the same an ICE vehicle that has to stop and get gas every 300 miles by the way how many 300 mile trips do you take in a day these days last time I drove a car over 300 miles in a day.......15 years ago and it really pissed off the better half that we were driving a car that far Enjoy the transition and NG is a renewable resource....you thinking that hooking up all the cows to pipelines is the answer?????? or bags of pigshit???? thats alot of pigshit and cows needed.......... Edited December 18, 2023 by notsonice 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,490 December 18, 2023 2 hours ago, notsonice said: and NG is a renewable resource....you thinking that hooking up all the cows to pipelines is the answer?????? or bags of pigshit???? thats alot of pigshit and cows needed.......... I thought foot disease was volunteering. He produces plenty of NG. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 18, 2023 (edited) On 12/16/2023 at 11:44 PM, Jay McKinsey said: 80K vehicles next year is hardly small for the second full year of production. This is just getting started. Last year Toyota only sold 100K of the venerable Tundras. If you were an economist you would know that. Below 1% of the transportation sector...that is REAL low. Wrong on the European numbers for EVs, Jay. EV sales in Europe are down 3% on the YoY comparison. Sales of EVs in Europe have declined 3% compared to one year ago. That is a disaster, and will make it impossible to satisfy the deadlines. "...Europe saw sales drop 3% versus the same month in 2022." https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/global-ev-sales-hit-new-record-november-rho-motion-2023-12-12/ Edited December 18, 2023 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP December 18, 2023 On 12/16/2023 at 12:31 AM, Jay McKinsey said: You do struggle with numbers and comprehension. The report says 18%, up 39% YoY. He doesnt understand what Global means Jay, he thinks that just refers to the USA. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM December 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Below 1% of the transportation sector...that is REAL low. Wrong on the European numbers for EVs, Jay. EV sales in Europe are down 3% on the YoY comparison. Sales of EVs in Europe have declined 3% compared to one year ago. That is a disaster, and will make it impossible to satisfy the deadlines. "...Europe saw sales drop 3% versus the same month in 2022." https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/global-ev-sales-hit-new-record-november-rho-motion-2023-12-12/ Love the title of the article you are taking info from keep posting the Good Green News...you are doing a bang up good job Merry Xmas Global EV sales hit new record in November - Rho Motion By Nick Carey December 12, 20237:11 AM MSTUpdated 6 days ago Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP December 18, 2023 On 12/17/2023 at 4:25 AM, Ecocharger said: uropean EV sales are down 3% YoY, a catastrophe for the Green Dream. You keep spouting the same nonsense over and over again! You cant cherry pick 1 month and ignore the other 10 months, you have to look at the annual sales and then look at YoY growth/decline I thought you were a famed economist??? Which college did you go to again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM December 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Rob Plant said: You keep spouting the same nonsense over and over again! You cant cherry pick 1 month and ignore the other 10 months, you have to look at the annual sales and then look at YoY growth/decline I thought you were a famed economist??? Which college did you go to again? Trump U?????? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 December 18, 2023 9 hours ago, notsonice said: Before coal no one moved ANYWHERE or did ANYTHING.????? horse and buggy, wagon trains sail boats you do know the first railways used horses to pull the wagons canal boats were pulled by mules or horses people moved, just slower before coal, locomotives were fired with wood.......before the steam age was the sail age think back to 1820.......US was feeding England with raw materials ...how many coal powered steamers crossing the Atlantic in the 1820's???? your BS argument is just BS talking about "renewables" outside of Pumped Hydro Power is an absurd joke...... not anymore as solar is the cheapest source of power out there.... and lately the price of solar is falling to the point that solar power is taking over all new power generation Coal ??? backup Oil??? backup and too expensive Nat Gas.....a transition fuel and backup add in batteries and it works to solar and wind ...........Coal is toast and is going into terminal decline as we speak Oil is toast in the next 30 years and then Nat Gas will be last of the fossil fuels to get put out of business only a Luddite believes Coal is the first to come along to power humanity You are just stuck in the Coal Age....... Coal Age is dead Electrified trains......over 100 years old elevators....old school and none powered by coal the rest of the world is now in the Renewables Age EVs can travel 300 miles on a charge the same an ICE vehicle that has to stop and get gas every 300 miles by the way how many 300 mile trips do you take in a day these days last time I drove a car over 300 miles in a day.......15 years ago and it really pissed off the better half that we were driving a car that far Enjoy the transition and NG is a renewable resource....you thinking that hooking up all the cows to pipelines is the answer?????? or bags of pigshit???? thats alot of pigshit and cows needed.......... Ah yes, wood... I can tell you have never used an axe. Hilarious, horses are transportation in your world of make believe eh.. .Good one. No, USA did not transport goods to UK or the UK to any other part of the world in any quantity worth talking about before the age of coal/oil. Suggest you do some simple basic reading on tonnages actually carried before introduction of oil based ocean transport. It is beyond pitiful. What is pitiful is you think pumped hydro storage is a renewable energy source... Yes, NG is renewable, just where do you think the CO2 goes in the atmosphere hrmm??? It gets sequestered in one general area. I know I am stupid, look at me, I replied to you after all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP December 18, 2023 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: I know I am stupid Yes, yes you are! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,544 December 18, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Its called energy density in transportation is how you move the world forward. Before coal no one moved ANYWHERE or did ANYTHING. Going to Shittier forms of transportation works for a shitty 2nd car, and in places where you can have fixed power infrastructure on short known circuits. Always been true. But the world which connects everything requires power density enabling MORE Of humanity to do what we want allowing a greater percentage of humanity to invent new things which are more efficient at use of resources. Current battery tech is NOT there and until it IS there, talking about "renewables" outside of Pumped Hydro Power is an absurd joke. Going backasswards does not work. The enthusiasm of less maintenance and cheaper transportation is what everyone dreams of... when curbed by reality. Without a universal solution you have no solution. PS: NG is a renewable resource. Oil, nope. Coal: Nope. PPS: Expectation... AKA inside knowledge on how fear drives humanity or inside knowledge of a company or you have nothing. Pumped hydro and batteries store just about the same amount of energy. If either obtains the "recharge" from renewables, then it is renewable. If either obtains "recharge" from non-renewable sources, neither is "renewable". BTW, batteries provide MUCH better grid stability support, within milliseconds. Pump hydro NEVER will achieve that prompt of response. And batteries have a FAR smaller footprint. and don't require lubrication. That said, pumped hydro is still quite valuable for energy time-shifting. Edited December 18, 2023 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 18, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: He doesnt understand what Global means Jay, he thinks that just refers to the USA. No Rob, EUROPE is down 3% in EV sales YoY. You seem to have trouble coming to grips with that number. Poor Jay was confused about the numbers. Edited December 18, 2023 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: You keep spouting the same nonsense over and over again! You cant cherry pick 1 month and ignore the other 10 months, you have to look at the annual sales and then look at YoY growth/decline I thought you were a famed economist??? Which college did you go to again? Rob, you are the one cherry picking, looking at the YoY gives a better picture than month to month. EVs in Europe down 3% in a year, that is a huge disaster for the Green Dream and it shows that Europe is fed up with EVs. There was apparently a limited market for EV growth in Europe. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,544 December 18, 2023 As I have said, "you ain't seen nothin' yet". https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Renewables-Top-50-Share-of-Germanys-Power-Demand-for-The-First-Time.html 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,544 December 18, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: No, USA did not transport goods to UK or the UK to any other part of the world in any quantity worth talking about before the age of coal/oil. Suggest you do some simple basic reading on tonnages actually carried before introduction of oil based ocean transport. It is beyond pitiful. Ahhh... Cotton?? Tobacco?? SUGAR!! (that stuff proved REALLY addicting). The USA had LAND, but lacked LABOR. The UK lacked LAND, but had lots of labor. Back then, The USA's free white population had the highest standard of living in the world! Back then, The U.S. built the best ships in the world! And England significantly restricted the export of anything related to manufacturing. Even immigration of "knowledgeable personnel" was prohibited by England. So we had to do it all ourselves. We found out how to do it. I admit, COAL made a huge impact. The SS Savannah crossed from Savannah to Liverpool in 1819 as the very first trans-Atlantic steamship, and it had RETRACTABLE paddewheels (although it carried more fuel than cargo). And we "won". (Shades of China v USA?) Edited December 18, 2023 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 December 18, 2023 14 hours ago, notsonice said: Before coal no one moved ANYWHERE or did ANYTHING.????? horse and buggy, wagon trains sail boats you do know the first railways used horses to pull the wagons canal boats were pulled by mules or horses people moved, just slower before coal, locomotives were fired with wood.......before the steam age was the sail age think back to 1820.......US was feeding England with raw materials ...how many coal powered steamers crossing the Atlantic in the 1820's???? your BS argument is just BS talking about "renewables" outside of Pumped Hydro Power is an absurd joke...... not anymore as solar is the cheapest source of power out there.... and lately the price of solar is falling to the point that solar power is taking over all new power generation Coal ??? backup Oil??? backup and too expensive Nat Gas.....a transition fuel and backup add in batteries and it works to solar and wind ...........Coal is toast and is going into terminal decline as we speak Oil is toast in the next 30 years and then Nat Gas will be last of the fossil fuels to get put out of business only a Luddite believes Coal is the first to come along to power humanity You are just stuck in the Coal Age....... Coal Age is dead Electrified trains......over 100 years old elevators....old school and none powered by coal the rest of the world is now in the Renewables Age EVs can travel 300 miles on a charge the same an ICE vehicle that has to stop and get gas every 300 miles by the way how many 300 mile trips do you take in a day these days last time I drove a car over 300 miles in a day.......15 years ago and it really pissed off the better half that we were driving a car that far Enjoy the transition and NG is a renewable resource....you thinking that hooking up all the cows to pipelines is the answer?????? or bags of pigshit???? thats alot of pigshit and cows needed.......... Summary judgment... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 December 18, 2023 (edited) On 12/15/2023 at 1:58 AM, Rob Plant said: Again you cite out of date news! Will you ever post something current? The reasons for the disastrous auction was twofold firstly interest rates being so high, but mainly that the maximum chargeable price was ridiculously low at £44/MWh and is now £73MWh. Interest rates have now fallen back to reasonable levels which will encourage investors at the next round, and then there's this announced in November! Boost for offshore wind as government raises maximum prices in renewable energy auction Boost for offshore wind as government raises maximum prices in renewable energy auction - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) Please try and keep up EWO! It's refreshing to see clarity on this topic. Fossil fuels pricing drops and yet pricing remains high no relief in sight. Only to be followed by wind utility companies demanding higher rates and the British government provides the additional funding...and once again rates jumps. So a friend is asking just how did fossil fuels ever effect rates..As you have pointed out gas has dropped yet rates go up? Yet the band plays on...maybe! More Than Two Pubs Shut Every Day in England and Wales In the first half of this year, 383 pubs were demolished or converted, according to new data. The number of pubs that are closing rose dramatically in the first half of the year in England and Wales. A total of 383 pubs were demolished or converted to other businesses, from January to June 2023, compared to 386 in the entirety of 2022, according to data from real estate company Altus Group. The sharp drop meant that on average, more than two pubs closed every single day in England and Wales. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-18/pub-closures-two-pubs-shut-every-day-in-england-and-wales Edited December 18, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,490 December 18, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ecocharger said: No Rob, EUROPE is down 3% in EV sales YoY. You seem to have trouble coming to grips with that number. Poor Jay was confused about the numbers. November 2023 was down 3% from November 2022. From the article you posted you economic ninny: "China posted a 25% increase in sales and were up 43% in the United States and Canada, while Europe saw sales drop 3% versus the same month in 2022." If you had a real degree in economics you would know how to read basic economic data. Your other alternative is that you can read it but are just lying about it. Which is it? Edited December 18, 2023 by Jay McKinsey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM December 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said: It's refreshing to see clarity on this topic. Fossil fuels pricing drops and yet pricing remains high no relief in sight. Only to be followed by wind utility companies demanding higher rates and the British government provides the additional funding...and once again rates jumps. So a friend is asking just how did fossil fuels ever effect rates..As you have pointed out gas has dropped yet rates go up? Yet the band plays on...maybe! More Than Two Pubs Shut Every Day in England and Wales In the first half of this year, 383 pubs were demolished or converted, according to new data. The number of pubs that are closing rose dramatically in the first half of the year in England and Wales. A total of 383 pubs were demolished or converted to other businesses, from January to June 2023, compared to 386 in the entirety of 2022, according to data from real estate company Altus Group. The sharp drop meant that on average, more than two pubs closed every single day in England and Wales. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-18/pub-closures-two-pubs-shut-every-day-in-england-and-wales More Than Two Pubs Shut Every Day in England and Wales??? getting drunk in public is a thing of the past I grew up in a town that had a bar for every 500 people including children now it is one for every 1000 people times are changing bars and pubs have been decreasing in the States for over 30 years same as the UK you are posting on a thread dedicated to the Green Energy Transition open your own thread on drinking........as we all know it has so much to do with Energy (ha ha ha) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 December 18, 2023 6 hours ago, turbguy said: Ahhh... Cotton?? Tobacco?? SUGAR!! (that stuff proved REALLY addicting). The USA had LAND, but lacked LABOR. The UK lacked LAND, but had lots of labor. Back then, The USA's free white population had the highest standard of living in the world! Back then, The U.S. built the best ships in the world! And England significantly restricted the export of anything related to manufacturing. Even immigration of "knowledgeable personnel" was prohibited by England. So we had to do it all ourselves. We found out how to do it. I admit, COAL made a huge impact. The SS Savannah crossed from Savannah to Liverpool in 1819 as the very first trans-Atlantic steamship, and it had RETRACTABLE paddewheels (although it carried more fuel than cargo). And we "won". (Shades of China v USA?) Odd, if you had done any BASIC reading of industrial revolution books describe tonnages moved when talking coal verses prior. It is night and day the difference. There is zero modern civ without coal as it has ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more power density than wood. Suggest you read books that have actual tonnages listed for international trade, not list "common knowledge baloney some fool so called "history" professor taught you in high school without any actual numbers", and no the USA popu did not have the highest standard of living in the world. That would be Europe by far and away and it wasn't even close, but no one had invented birth control yet so millions of them immigrated. USA was a wilderness backwater. What USA had, that you are probably remembering was by every metric the USA had the most highly educated population on average. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 19, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: November 2023 was down 3% from November 2022. From the article you posted you economic ninny: "China posted a 25% increase in sales and were up 43% in the United States and Canada, while Europe saw sales drop 3% versus the same month in 2022." If you had a real degree in economics you would know how to read basic economic data. Your other alternative is that you can read it but are just lying about it. Which is it? That is a 3% drop YoY, slow poke. Last page you thought that this was a one month drop...did you find your glasses with your milk this morning? That is a catastrophe for the EV movement in Europe. In case you did not notice, a 3% drop is in the wrong direction for your supposed EV revolution. Time for you to confess. I will forgive you. If you repent. Edited December 19, 2023 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,490 December 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: That is a 3% drop YoY, slow poke. Last page you thought that this was a one month drop...did you find your glasses with your milk this morning? That is a catastrophe for the EV movement in Europe. In case you did not notice, a 3% drop is in the wrong direction for your supposed EV revolution. Time for you to confess. I will forgive you. If you repent. It is a one month drop. YoY is the only way to properly measure a one month drop. And it is irrelevant. Europe will still set a new record for EV sales in 2023 as will the US, China and the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 19, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said: It is a one month drop. YoY is the only way to properly measure a one month drop. And it is irrelevant. Europe will still set a new record for EV sales in 2023 as will the US, China and the world. Point remains that there is a 3% drop in European sales over the current past one year period. That is a catastrophic drop in European EV sales. I guess that simple point is beyond your mathematical background, Jay, such as it is. Edited December 19, 2023 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 December 19, 2023 7 hours ago, turbguy said: Pumped hydro and batteries store just about the same amount of energy. If either obtains the "recharge" from renewables, then it is renewable. If either obtains "recharge" from non-renewable sources, neither is "renewable". BTW, batteries provide MUCH better grid stability support, within milliseconds. Pump hydro NEVER will achieve that prompt of response. And batteries have a FAR smaller footprint. and don't require lubrication. That said, pumped hydro is still quite valuable for energy time-shifting. Batteries do not provide grid support other than ripple power for which as you point out they are excellent at saving ~that 0.25% that is otherwise wasted. Batteries can provide base load and load following(technically). They provide ZERO inertia/buffer which is far more important than ripple following as they have zero turning mechanical inertia devices(Also why DC is not very good and AC wins)(transformers) Smaller footprint... Not exactly, but if you have lower head pressure, you are right. Take for instance here in Washington state it has been proposed many times to build a giant lake(s) up above Columbia River gorge to store the WASTED 25% of the power going down the Columbia river every spring during snowmelt season with a +++1000+++ meter height potential. Each cubic meter of water has an energy density of ~2.5kWh/m^3 @1000m head pressure. A battery, once manufactured has a higher density right and currently sits about ? But, for every cubic meter of battery produced there are at least 10(minimum) or 100 or 1000 cubic meters of land overburden or just junk with what you want. Off hand that is about equal if you asked me. Lets do a comparison... A Tesla Megapack ~3.9MWh/TEU; 1 TEU ~38M^3 Energy Density of 3900kWh/38m^3 ~= 39kWh/m^3 Or roughly ~15X energy density of water @1000m above its lower basin. Here is the rub: water is free(in places that have the water anyways) and dams are dirt cheap and last forever compared to batteries. Batteries are not free and do not last forever. Both have roughly same efficiency in storing power except batteries lose their power over time, giant lakes... do not(unless a desert but still lose less than batteries do over same time period) That lake up above Columbia river Gorge? By itself(in the 2 locations we could easily build it), would be enough power stored for all of the PNW(WA, OR) for 2-->4 hours(small version, big version ~a day all by itself and can easily follow the load). Now throw in several more at existing dams such as Banks lake and we have days worth of power stored. Yet crickets from our genius politicians who are saying batteries... but no mining of course unless it is in a different country... oh yea and no refining here either... that is dirty... Its ok to shit in other peoples backyards and drinking water but not dig a septic system in your own... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,490 December 19, 2023 9 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Point remains that there is a 3% drop in European sales over the current past one year period. That is a catastrophic drop in European EV sales. I guess that simple point is beyond your mathematical background, Jay, such as it is. It was a drop for the one month of November compared to last November. The past one year period has seen a gain of 62%: Electric vehicle (EV) sales are surging, especially in Europe, where the market grew by 62% in the past 12 months. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/11/electric-car-sales-europe-barriers-ev-adoption/ 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL December 19, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said: It was a drop for the one month of November compared to last November. The past one year period has seen a gain of 62%: Electric vehicle (EV) sales are surging, especially in Europe, where the market grew by 62% in the past 12 months. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/11/electric-car-sales-europe-barriers-ev-adoption/ Nope, you again show that you cannot read simple numbers. That 62% number is for July YoY, a different period from the recent one for November YoY. Between July and November this year the demand for EVs has apparently fallen off the edge. The EV uptake in Europe has fallen off the radar. "For the 12 months to July 2023, the region saw a surge of 62% in EV sales," Your data and mindset is out of date. Edited December 19, 2023 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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