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I meant to add this item from the Manhattan Contrarian in another thread, but the moment passed. One poster was doubting that renewables caused higher power prices. The Article compares power prices for various European countries and US states. As can be seen from the article Germany has been spending billions of Euros on the so called energy transition in exchange for 40 per cent plus penetration for solar and wind and the second most expensive power prices in Europe, after Belgium. Bear in mind that the 40 per cent or whatever is an average. At times renewable energy would account for 100 per cent of the load on the grid, and at other times almost nothing. The proportions would also vary year to year and decade to decade. It's a natural system.

What do you think is the correlation between a booming economy and a 30 trillion dollar debt that may never be paid off? How about an American auto industry that is dying? Real wages dropping?

Price per KWh is indeed a large consideration. All new generating equipment is expensive. Much of the transmission and related switching equipment capital can be heavily reduced by locating near a retired fossil facility. That what Bill Gates in doing in Kemmerer, WY on the Terra Power nuclear plant.

People who want to work may have public transportation, a bike, an e-bike, or ride share etc. Unfortunately most people need a car because of timing, and lack of public transport. I get 43 mpg around town in my 3 cylinder Mitsubishi and we also use a minivan and a large 12 seater. All are paid for and have average mileage of about 50,000. I would like to see cheaper vehicles for the average poor person, not the homeless, few able bodied and people of normal intelligence can eventually afford a car of some kind. Fortunately several car and small trucks are supposed to come out that have very low prices. Waiting and watching.

Poor people can afford a few hundred dollars to purchase and register a used fossil fuel clunker?????? nope most poor people (ie Homeless people) cannot afford new cars of any type let alone beaters or clunkers.......clunkers do not last forever...and they do not magically repair themselves nor do the tanks get filled up with a few pennies. . For many poor people cars of any type are out of reach....... if it was true that the poor could afford clunkers you would not see homeless people camping out everywhere, living on the streets or under bridges. some day their will be EV/Phev cars on their last legs......sold for a few hundred dollars.....scrap value....same as your clunkers today which some homeless people will buy and use them to camp in them, no different than your clunker world today. You will see EV encampments in front of free charging stations. or have a few solar panels built in the cars.......a couple of miles a day from the sun.....oh the transition will occur even for the poor......some will have old tired EVs most will have nothing Unless you think EVs will retain their value forever????? They never die???? No such fate awaits second-hand EVs??????? ...now the question are there any gas stations that give away gas for free in your dreamy clunker world????.....I still see guys standing on the corner...begging for change (or bucks these days) to buy gas........ gone will be the days when you tank is siphoned off overnight....or do you think poor people will hot wire EVs to steal electrons????? Poor people can afford a few hundred dollars to purchase and register a used fossil fuel clunker....??????? you are not dealing with reality All cars are not cheap to own, run, insure, maintain including your ICE clunkers or EVs

The article I listed above shows a long group of data showing the probability of a recession or a major slowdown of the world economy currently in progress, which is what should be expected at this stage of the world business cycle.

Ok Mark if you are dismissing Levelised costs then maybe try this, its how the UK determine electricity prices on its grid!! "Wholesale electricity prices are not regulated and, instead, trading on spot (or day-ahead) markets sets them. In these markets, electricity generators bid to contribute to the power grid. The power exchange (Nord Pool in the UK) accepts these bids in price order, from lowest to highest, until demand is met, in what is known as the ‘merit order’: sources of electricity with the lowest marginal cost of generation (typically renewables, as they do not use any fuel) are the first bids to be accepted, and sources such as gas- and coal-fired power stations are the last (as they use fuel and the generator must also pay carbon tax on that fuel use)." Electricity market | Institute for Government I hope that clears that up for you! Renewables do not "drive up prices where ever they are used" thats garbage! You also post zero to back up your claim once again. The UK also has 12.3GW of interconnectors between countries which it uses when the price suits or when renewables are contributing a small percentage (which is very rare). It also exports excess power from renewables to these countries, for example the 1.4GW North Sea Link between Norway and the UK, when the wind blows we export to Norway, when it doesnt we buy their hydro, works very well.

Well Footy we import the majority of our NG unlike the US so yes we are at the whim of the market. I didnt pull this cost out of my ass it is from "UK Government Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy" The Cost of Electricity Generation Methods - Pager Power I guess you know better than they do, please provide your extensive research and study on this so we can all have a look! If you havent then time to put that footbackinmouth. How are your tunnel projects coming along? Got much funding?

You seem to be confused about the causes of inflation, old boy. Inflation is a general condition in the economy caused by too much money supply, which is now being tamed by high interest rates. When that happens, the prices of everything will fall. We are now seeing that happen in the usual way, and of course demand for everything will weaken. The current administration will have to eat crow over this development, as the excess money supply was created to facilitate their plans. Why should I hesitate to cry foul over the mistakes of those who oppose the normal demand for oil? You must be off center. I cited the risk of demand stalling earlier, I guess you must have been falling asleep again. Note that the information about this was apparently delayed until the recent Presidential debate was held...a little boost for the little lady. ".. the U.S. labor Department had to make a sharp revision on the number of new jobs added over the 12 months to March, as it turned out the actual new job additions were over 800,000 fewer than previously estimated, fueling concern about demand in the world’s biggest consumer of oil."

https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/GREENWELLS_Project Descriptions.pdf

Wright brothers still on top of the game Aviation Week Wright, Axter Fly Crop Duster-Based Hybrid-Electric Testbed Share ... The modified Thrush hybrid-electric testbed aircraft made its first flight in June in Ohio. ... U.S. startup Wright Aerospace and Spain's... . Nov 15, 2023 Business Wire Wright Electric and CT Axter Aerospace Successfully Complete Maiden Flight of 800 kW Hybrid-Electric Crop Duster Aircraft, Wright Achieves 1.2 MW in Electric Propulsion Unit Wright Electric and Axter Aerospace, leading innovators in electric aircraft technology, are thrilled to announce the successful completion... . Nov 15, 2023 Green Car Congress Wright Electric, Axter complete maiden flight of 800 kW hybrid crop duster; Wright EPU achieves 1.2 MW Wright Electric and Axter Aerospace announced the successful completion of the maiden flights of their hybrid-electric crop duster aircraft,... . Nov 17, 2023

The current demand fluctuations for oil appear to be more due to temporary factors rather than structural. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Time-To-Stop-Looking-to-China-for-Oil-Demand-Growth.html "For years, China has been the single biggest driver of oil demand expansion. For the second quarter of this year, China reported economic growth of 4.7%. Despite rebounding Chinese crude imports, analysts expect slower Chinese crude oil demand growth." "... oil imports in China are on the rebound. In August, arrivals rose to the highest in the past 12 months, suggesting the doldrums that the Chinese economy is reportedly in are not that deep after all. The August 2024 import numbers are still lower than the August 2023 average, Reuters’ Clyde Russell noted in a report on the data, by 7%. Even so, at 11.56 million barrels daily, imports were still quite substantial. Part of the reason for the rebound was lower prices, as Reuters’ Russell noted, and these lower prices may well continue stimulating demand, such as it is, for a longer period..."

Oil is strong and getting stronger.......spoken by a blind lover of coal and oil the one thing in common with all of the news that is put out on this site....none of the articles addresses the booming EV/plugin hybrid production numbers out of China and the effect on oil demand both short term and long term and the booming Nat gas fueled vehicle boom in the trucking sector in China....... the article you reference, once again mentions nothing on why Oil demand is down while global energy consumption is up up up in 2024 The reality is the situation in China is driving Oil pricing and demand.......as it has for the last 15 years and now.....and it is down down down..... has to scare the crap out of all those who are long on oil.......IE do not get caught with stranded assets IE reserves of untapped oil....... oversupply in Oil production will be the norm for at least the next 3 years as everyone that has any reserves is trying to produce produce produce and cash out fast Saudis have been in denial for the last 2 years.....they seem to think the long term is booming demand.......no one is buying it The Shorts are making boat loads of money....rocky road for those long on Oil at least into 2026 where is the price heading to......$60 oil coming in 2025 ...everyone wins except anyone in the Oil business...... Enjoy the Green agenda.........More Energy is being produced and the air is getting cleaner everyday

Oil Net Short For First Time in History Oil Net Short For First Time in History | OilPrice.com "Oil is strong and getting stronger" 🤣

Well one has to look at what is the US debt....is it just a measure of US dollars in circulation....digital circulation??? one mans debt is another mans wealth Guess the US could print 30 trillion in dollars instead. and extinguish its debt....but the worlds banking system does not use physical paper any more......Try to buy a house with cash these days.....or with a check....good luck.... banking around the world is done with digital money and with wire transfers of digital money....makes you wonder how anyone verifies that the digital dollars where ever issued at one time in the US or someone can just make up a bank in a third world and claim the have dollars and trade them/use them The debt now is just electronic dollars with interest .......... US dollar is unique........one would think that the rest of the world would flee the dollar when all the new debt is issued.....does not happen......why one has to ask ...simple it is the only currency that is held in reserve in all countries...because there is no real viable alternative.... The Debt is the same as printing dollars ..except you get paid interest is it a pyramid scheme???? the US Debt.........of course to a degree...it will never get paid off.....paying it off means less dollars in circulation... see we create more , which ends up in digital bank accounts or digital checking accounts around the world....and all banks and people around the world are addicted to the US dollar.....not gold....not even their own countries currencies Alternatives???? Gold???? forget it...the world is now a digital banking world.......when you want to use your gold you have to convert it into currency and then you have to deposit it (place it in the digital banking world). Heck no one even uses printed money to any degree any more. Land ......is the premium holder of wealth......any one wanting to move to China for its land value?????? nope Russia...unstable government...Germany......?????? bad past history......anywhere in Europe????UK maybe rest of Europe???? good luck...You could say our debt is backed by our land.....our economic system...our legal system....etc my take on the expansion in debt recently was welcomed by nearly every country in the world.....just means more digital dollars in circulation which helps expand economies everywhere... The number one place in the world where people want to be is the US ..........schools, safety, opportunities.....why the US has such a large immigration numbers ...been going on for the last 200 years other currencies The Yen....forget it....the Euro.....give me a break ..we all know the Europeans will never treat each others as equals and a real European Union such as the United States.......The Chinese currency???? people hold Crypto currency in higher regard..which does not say much so when the US issues more debt.......it does not trigger a run on the dollar........as there is no real alternative... Only when the world is oversaturated with US digital dollars will problems occur and this is nowhere near happening.... I myself will never complain about too many dollars in my bank account. You can travel to every country in the world and the Dollar is king even over each countries currency now for cars........Short term answer was Tarriffs....was not a long term solution........Mexico will become the US supplier of all cars very soon and I am talking about Chinese owned car makers moving production and incorporating business and floating stocks on the NYSE in the US and using Mexico to produce cars to take over the US market. Whats it take to do this, US dollars which the Chinese are sitting on at least 3 Trillion US dollars. I have been working in Mexico on and off for the past 20 years.....The planes are full of US engineers travelling to auto part makers owned by US based car makers....as just about every part that takes manual labor for US assembled cars is made in Mexico Only way to stop total wipe out of US Made (or should i say US assembled) is to undo the US Canada Mexico Trade pack....Good luck Mexico is no third world country anymore..........most of it looks like the US , schools...stores....cars.....houses.....businesses.....they just pay people a lot less

Again, Rob, you've quoted stuff you don't understand out of context. Sure, what the passage says is correct and, that's right, renewables have been known to collapse the spot price pool for power. But you're confusing the wholesale spot price with total wholesale and power prices. In the UK in particular they have balancing costs and capacity prices - that is generators paid to stay operating just in case they are needed. There is a wide and increasing gap between the market wholesale price and the price needed to deliver power. If you don't believe this, ask yourself why Germany and UK have vast amounts of renewable power on their grids and have extremely expensive retail power prices. As I said before you need to study the subject. There is much more I could say, but I now don't take you seriously on this stuff. I won't bother to reply to you on this thread.

But his opponent also had trouble articulating any vision.

How is that oil demand in China going these days??? getting hot and hotter everyday???? Pesky EVs ruining your clunker parade???? Electric Cars Are Driving China Toward the End of the Age ... Bloomberg https://www.bloomberg.com › graphics › 2023-china-ev-... Dec 21, 2023 — Rapid uptake of battery-powered vehicles means China may already have reached peak oil demand, years earlier than anyone expected. PS this is what a transition looks like....When is the last time you bought a roll of film????? looks like a tech transition takes around 15 to 20 years

Eco why not just eat that humble pie and admit you were wrong for once? Everyone with a semblance of a brain cell can see that you are!

On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25  but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Renewables: Cheapest form of power Renewables: Cheapest form of power | United Nations Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA (carbonbrief.org) What’s the cheapest source of electricity? What's the cheapest source of electricity? | AquaSwitch The UK's costs for 2025 Mark every site I look at is saying the opposite to your post, also I cannot get your link to work. Simply google the question and you will find a whole host of sites refuting what you claim, I am yet to see 1 that agrees with it. I'm not deliberately disagreeing with you I genuinely cannot find anything to support your claim! Renewables will only get cheaper as it becomes more mainstream and technology advances. I do agree however that certain renewables suit certain climates/locations and others don't, but this still doesn't mean they are more expensive than conventional FF generation.

Ukraine is simply destroyed. Thats all. Demilitarized by lack of people. 52 milions were living there back in 1991. Now MAYBE a half of that. So much winning for them. Mostly on cementaries. Firepower advantage by other side. Yeap - never ask about Ukrainian casualties. In a war of attrition?