Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 January 23 1 hour ago, notsonice said: 12 percent loss??? that is it????........ICE vehicles get 12 percent less mileage per tank in cold weather....... yeah cold weather operation for a ICE vehicle sucks........warming up a car takes 15 minutes and the fuel mixture is rich ...wasting gas.... Do cars run rich when cold? When the engine is cold, the fuel won't evaporate properly, so what would normally be a correct mixture on a hot engine will actually be a weak mixture when cold. To overcome this, more fuel is added when the engine is cold to give a more ideal mixture for starting.Sep 29, 2015 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE January 23 1 hour ago, notsonice said: When the engine is cold, the fuel won't evaporate properly, so what would normally be a correct mixture on a hot engine will actually be a weak mixture when cold. To overcome this, more fuel is added when the engine is cold to give a more ideal mixture for starting.Sep 29, 2015 Another downside is the catalytic converters don't work when cold; so all that rich exhaust goes out improperly treated. As we have seen many times before factory stated ICE emission statistics are lies (VW). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE January 23 9 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said: Is this some sort of rebuttal? Do you so desperately need few likes from Eco and the one or two other remaining cult members here that you reduce your intellectual contribution to the level of a GIF off the web? Try Harder - do not use links or gifs and actually say your ideas in your own words. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 6 hours ago, specinho said: They were given free wifi. People were seen using internet freely on the street in the documentary. Embargo imposed, after size of land exceeding 1000 acres nationalized and consfication of wealth etc, might have created some negative impact. Plans might not have been smooth enough to meet the change. For example, majority of the people worked for the gov. Gov servants and families were given ration of free food, free housing. Embargo created shortage that messed up the plans. Not sure if it is relevant but, read it in a book <100 leaders of the world you must know> , all great leaders and their respective country, who supported Palestine Arafat in his fight, were ruined. Disintegration of Russia, Failure of Gaddafi, problematic reformation for Castrol etc. Therefore, it might be a multifactorial problem. Not caused by just one man attempts and decision to make things better for his country and people. Nope WiFi access in Cuba differs to access in Europe/USA/most of the rest of the world because: There is no free WiFi in Cuba – it can be expensive. Access to the internet in Cuba is restricted and censored by the government – remember this if you choose to log on. Cuba is a great destination but still a communist country. For 2021, one hour to access Internet through public Wi Fi cost 1.50 CUP. Access to the national network, 0.50 CUP. The minimum data mobile package down to 110 CUP by 600 Mbs and a bonus for 4G lines, combining also messages and calls. Since 2018, access to the Internet by mobile data is available. So you have to pay for totally censored internet, wow what a great deal lol! No this total raping of Cuba was down to 1 man and his warped ideology. He became wealthy beyond belief whilst watching the country's infrastructure and people fall into disrepair and poverty. Did he act? no he continued to earn his $900M. A despot and his son is no better! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Who wants an EV? They are useless in the winter months. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Cold-Weather-Has-Increased-Range-Anxiety-For-EV-Drivers.html "A study by the American Automobile Association (AAA) found that an EV can lose as much as 12% of its range when temperatures drop to 20 degrees Fahrenheit or -6 celsius. To make matters worse for EVs, charging times can double or even triple for older EVs amid low temperatures." Its been minus 8 by me recently and my hybrid works just fine thanks, no problem with the battery. Actual the battery is great as you can remotely activate climate control from your phone to defrost your car! Edited January 23 by Rob Plant 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 2 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Is this some sort of rebuttal? Do you so desperately need few likes from Eco and the one or two other remaining cult members here that you reduce your intellectual contribution to the level of a GIF off the web? Try Harder - do not use links or gifs and actually say your ideas in your own words. He cant, Its all he has! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polyphia + 83 LT January 23 4 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Is this some sort of rebuttal? Do you so desperately need few likes from Eco and the one or two other remaining cult members here that you reduce your intellectual contribution to the level of a GIF off the web? Try Harder - do not use links or gifs and actually say your ideas in your own words. When the gifs and memes come out, it means EWO is capitulating. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,191 January 23 (edited) 10 hours ago, notsonice said: 12 percent loss??? that is it????........ICE vehicles get 12 percent less mileage per tank in cold weather....... yeah cold weather operation for a ICE vehicle sucks........warming up a car takes 15 minutes and the fuel mixture is rich ...wasting gas.... Desperation oozing out of your pores... ICE vehicles increase efficiency in cold weather as they do not have to compress the air as much. Here are REAL EV tests over THOUSANDS of cars. https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss Average is ~70% range at freezing conditions, not 12% loss. If at freezing Teslas 3/Y lose 50%... , not 12% as stated. You have fools driving around in massive gloves/scarfs, thick boots etc as they refuse to turn on the HEAT, pretending that heated seats will make all the difference... Here is latest test in Finland: https://www.teslarati.com/upgraded-tesla-model-3-wins-winter-range-test/ They lose 50% range and unknown cabin conditions. So, it appears it plateaus's at least between freezing and -20C conditions for Tesla... you "only" lose 50%... and this is the Best out there... Audi Etron designed in Germany, where they have this thing called WINTER lost 20% in 0C conditions... not 12% as stated. Though might be artificially low to begin with so maybe they aren't lying to begin with? Not even talking cold temperatures yet, only 30F/0C... Would you like some MORE doses of HUMBLE PIE? Nissan Leaf loses 40% range in 30F/0C Ford MachE... loses 40% in a mere 30F conditions... Hyundai seem to give REAL world ranges for ~almost winter, not maximum blue weather spring day ranges, like the other fools. BRAVO HYUNDAI!!!! They aren't LYING TRASH!!! Oh wait, different study shows Hyundai simply show their % left as 10% high... In actual cold conditions: Electric cars have to warm their batteries all night long and interior of cab before you drive anywhere.... Not a mere 15 minutes... Even then you lose another 12% range just heating the cab. Now if Electric vehicles were actually DESIGNED correctly, they would add insulation around their batteries to reduce range loss, but I digress, that would make them more expensive and well they already have a price problem. Edited January 23 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 (edited) Electric cars fail less in extreme cold than fuel-powered vehicles, Norwegian breakdowns reveal Electric vehicles fail less than fuel-powered cars in extreme cold | The Independent “Electric cars are better in the cold,” Setrom says. Electric cars account for 13 percent of starting problems that result in a call to Viking for assistance while the remaining 87 percent of starting problems are attributable to conventional cars.16 hours ago The Art Of Driving Electric Cars In The Cold - CleanTechnica Edited January 23 by Rob Plant 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 (edited) 29 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: In actual cold conditions: Electric cars have to warm their batteries all night long and interior of cab before you drive anywhere.... Not a mere 15 minutes... Even then you lose another 12% range just heating the cab. This statement is utter BS! And its backed up by.... you guessed it sod all! First line from your link https://www.teslarati.com/upgraded-tesla-model-3-wins-winter-range-test/ says this "While recent news reports may suggest that Teslas are useless in the cold, the results of a winter range test in Europe reveal that the opposite is true." "The upgraded Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor AWD continued to be drivable despite its battery showing 0%. The vehicle drove over 300 km despite the frigid weather" Edited January 23 by Rob Plant 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE January 23 (edited) 41 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Desperation oozing out of your pores... ICE vehicles increase efficiency in cold weather as they do not have to compress the air as much. Look at reality. The cold air intake advantage is dwarfed by other disadvantages. Fact is being cold hurts all vehicles. But seriously, it sounds like you have never driven a car in really cold weather. Nobody who has would say their ICE car works more efficiently in the cold. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml "Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips." Edited January 23 by TailingsPond 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 23 (edited) 17 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: Look at reality. The cold air intake advantage is dwarfed by other disadvantages. Fact is being cold hurts all vehicles. But seriously, it sounds like you have never driven a car in really cold weather. Nobody who has would say their ICE car works more efficiently in the cold. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml "Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips." More whacky ideas from Footinmouth! Maybe he is on about putting all cars underground like his trains so they dont get as cold and perform better? He'll be telling us next we should build tunnels for aeroplanes so they havent got as far to fall if theres a problem. Maybe he is some form of worm and loves living underground? He's truly a troubled individual on the brink of mental collapse poor chap. Edited January 23 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,191 January 23 3 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Electric cars fail less in extreme cold than fuel-powered vehicles, Norwegian breakdowns reveal Electric vehicles fail less than fuel-powered cars in extreme cold | The Independent “Electric cars are better in the cold,” Setrom says. Electric cars account for 13 percent of starting problems that result in a call to Viking for assistance while the remaining 87 percent of starting problems are attributable to conventional cars.16 hours ago The Art Of Driving Electric Cars In The Cold - CleanTechnica ARE you this dumb? Or can't read past a headline: The actual numbers https://hothardware.com/news/survey-shows-evs-have-lower-failure-rates-than-gas-cars-in-frigid-weather is 21% not 13% which accounts perfectly with Norway's ~24% EV fleet in margin of error. 13% of the 21% was for EV's who did not start, --> At all. They did not say what % ICE would not start... Why did the vehicles all have problems or nearly in all cases? Dead batteries, or were in ditch... Do I always have to hold your hand like a child regarding basic math? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,191 January 23 3 hours ago, Rob Plant said: This statement is utter BS! And its backed up by.... you guessed it sod all! First line from your link https://www.teslarati.com/upgraded-tesla-model-3-wins-winter-range-test/ says this "While recent news reports may suggest that Teslas are useless in the cold, the results of a winter range test in Europe reveal that the opposite is true." "The upgraded Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor AWD continued to be drivable despite its battery showing 0%. The vehicle drove over 300 km despite the frigid weather" How DUMB are you? Tesla LONG RANGE had an expected range of 629km... It drove 300km.. 300km/629km = 48% actual range 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM January 23 3 hours ago, Rob Plant said: More whacky ideas from Footinmouth! Maybe he is on about putting all cars underground like his trains so they dont get as cold and perform better? He'll be telling us next we should build tunnels for aeroplanes so they havent got as far to fall if theres a problem. Maybe he is some form of worm and loves living underground? He's truly a troubled individual on the brink of mental collapse poor chap. I think foot in the mouth has a crush on Elon and the Boring Company the company keeps cancelling tunnel projects and keeps taking investors money dreamers get in the tunnel business and soon find out tunnels are money pits Inactive and cancelled projects United States Baltimore–Washington Loop – In 2017, Musk announced plans to build a Hyperloop connecting Washington, DC to Baltimore.[58] This was supplanted in 2018 by a proposal to build a route following the Baltimore–Washington Parkway.[59] The Maryland Transportation Authority officially approved the project.[60] In 2019, a draft Environmental Assessment for the project was completed.[61] As of 2021, the project was no longer listed on the company website.[62] Chicago – In 2018, the company won a competition to build a high-speed link from downtown Chicago to O'Hare Airport.[63][64][65] As of 2021 the plan had been dropped.[66] Los Angeles – In 2018, TBC proposed to develop a 2.7-mile-long (4.3 km) test tunnel on a north–south alignment parallel to Interstate 405 and adjacent to Sepulveda Boulevard.[67]: 25:50 Public opposition and lawsuits led the company to abandon the idea.[68][69] Also in 2018, the company proposed to build a 3.6-mile (5.8 km) tunnel called the "Dugout Loop" from Vermont Avenue to Dodger Stadium. As of June 2021, the project had been removed from TBC's website.[66] In February 2021 the San Bernardino County Transportation Authority in California approved beginning contract negotiations with TBC to build a nearly 4-mile (6.4 km) tunnel connecting the Ontario airport with the Rancho Cucamonga Metrolink/Future Brightline West train station.[70] However, TBC did not submit a proposal after a third party was involved to study the project impacts.[71] The SBCTA has plans to build the tunnel system using "another company more familiar with the state's bureaucracy to do the Environmental Impact Report."[72] San Jose – In 2019, a link between San Jose International Airport and Diridon station, was discussed as an alternative to an $800 million traditional rail link.[73] In 2023, concerns about TBCs financial condition led San Jose to cancel the project.[74][better source needed] Australia In January 2019, Musk responded to an MP regarding a tunnel through the Blue Mountains to the west of Sydney, suggesting costs of $750 million for a 31-mile (50 km) tunnel, plus $50 million per station.[75][76] 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL January 23 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: This statement is utter BS! And its backed up by.... you guessed it sod all! First line from your link https://www.teslarati.com/upgraded-tesla-model-3-wins-winter-range-test/ says this "While recent news reports may suggest that Teslas are useless in the cold, the results of a winter range test in Europe reveal that the opposite is true." "The upgraded Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor AWD continued to be drivable despite its battery showing 0%. The vehicle drove over 300 km despite the frigid weather" Proper controlled tests prove that range is restricted for EVs in the cold weather...Rob, you are looking at a NEWSPAPER devoted to promoting EVs doing their own test, not objective engineers. That is no better than propaganda, but I guess propaganda is all you know. Read the fine print from your own sales blurb of the unscientific test you are relying upon. That's right, the EVs did not do well, just as I pointed out to you above. You are still in denial, old bean. "The Tesla Model 3 Long Range was the electric car that came the lowest in severe winter cold with a mileage of over 300 km. Several of the ten electric cars tested had mileages that were less than 200 km. Some cars shut down unexpectedly before the battery was empty. The Hyundai Kona Electric stopped on an uphill hill with 7 percent battery left. - The severe cold has an effect, but in the challenging weather some of the cars were still able to judge the range of the battery really well, and some stopped unexpectedly, says Lauri Ahtiainen who was responsible for the test at Tekniikan Maailma. However, the Tesla Model 3 that won the test was still drivable when the car showed that the battery had zero percent charge. Most electric cars limited power and heating when the charge started to decrease. " Edited January 23 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 24 12 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: How DUMB are you? Tesla LONG RANGE had an expected range of 629km... It drove 300km.. 300km/629km = 48% actual range Did it fail? NO How far do you think the average commute is in Norway???? Is 300KM not enough for you??? Whats your commute each day?? Did the vehicle more that adequately get the driver from A to B in comfort YES and they didnt even have to scrape the ice of the vehicle they just got into a nice climatised car and drove off. How stupid are you???? Compared to ICE vehicles in the same conditions EV's fail far less and thats the bottom line or are you that foolish you dont accept that? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 24 (edited) 9 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Proper controlled tests prove that range is restricted for EVs in the cold weather...Rob, you are looking at a NEWSPAPER devoted to promoting EVs doing their own test, not objective engineers. That is no better than propaganda, but I guess propaganda is all you know. Read the fine print from your own sales blurb of the unscientific test you are relying upon. That's right, the EVs did not do well, just as I pointed out to you above. You are still in denial, old bean. "The Tesla Model 3 Long Range was the electric car that came the lowest in severe winter cold with a mileage of over 300 km. Several of the ten electric cars tested had mileages that were less than 200 km. Some cars shut down unexpectedly before the battery was empty. The Hyundai Kona Electric stopped on an uphill hill with 7 percent battery left. - The severe cold has an effect, but in the challenging weather some of the cars were still able to judge the range of the battery really well, and some stopped unexpectedly, says Lauri Ahtiainen who was responsible for the test at Tekniikan Maailma. However, the Tesla Model 3 that won the test was still drivable when the car showed that the battery had zero percent charge. Most electric cars limited power and heating when the charge started to decrease. " Again is 300KM not enough for you??? How far do you drive each day??? Is that failing if it gets you from A to B in comfort??? not in my book it isnt. ICE vehicles have major issues starting at all, and in very cold weather diesel can begin to gel and the vehicle is undriveable. The real issues with starting a diesel vehicle is water in the fuel filter freezing, but there are many! No issues starting an EV! Oh and the newspaper reference, its called THE INDEPENDENT for a reason and if you knew anything about it you would know it is a well respected mainstream newspaper like the Times, Guardian etc. It is NOT a pro green propaganda paper as you claim, that is just BS and you know it. The Independent - Wikipedia Edited January 24 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP January 24 Youve gotta love wind powergen! Currently the UK is generating 46.9% power by wind alone (Renewables 55.5%, FF 19.5%) Cost is £33/MWh Emissions 86g/KWh Thats against the last 12 months with renewables at 35.6%, FF 35.9% Cost £91.62/MWh Emissions 155g/KWh 12 years ago emissions were 505g/KWh, so were now at 17% emissions of 12 years ago! Bye bye coal! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE January 24 8 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Oh and the newspaper reference, its called THE INDEPENDENT for a reason and if you knew anything about it you would know it is a well respected mainstream newspaper like the Times, Guardian etc. It is NOT a pro green propaganda paper as you claim, that is just BS and you know it. The Independent - Wikipedia These guys quote oilprice.com opinion pieces as if they are gospel all the time. I find it amusing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL January 24 (edited) 8 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Again is 300KM not enough for you??? How far do you drive each day??? Is that failing if it gets you from A to B in comfort??? not in my book it isnt. ICE vehicles have major issues starting at all, and in very cold weather diesel can begin to gel and the vehicle is undriveable. The real issues with starting a diesel vehicle is water in the fuel filter freezing, but there are many! No issues starting an EV! Oh and the newspaper reference, its called THE INDEPENDENT for a reason and if you knew anything about it you would know it is a well respected mainstream newspaper like the Times, Guardian etc. It is NOT a pro green propaganda paper as you claim, that is just BS and you know it. The Independent - Wikipedia Rob, getting from A to B is not the issue here, you are trying to change the subject. You are relying on a propaganda sheet , not properly controlled studies. A public newspaper is not an engineering or science journal. I guess that is beyond your training to distinguish the two. Even your own propaganda admits that EVs have trouble in cold weather, I just quoted from your own stuff to prove that. Read again. Yes, that's a fail. "The Tesla Model 3 Long Range was the electric car that came the lowest in severe winter cold with a mileage of over 300 km. Several of the ten electric cars tested had mileages that were less than 200 km. Some cars shut down unexpectedly before the battery was empty. The Hyundai Kona Electric stopped on an uphill hill with 7 percent battery left. - The severe cold has an effect, but in the challenging weather some of the cars were still able to judge the range of the battery really well, and some stopped unexpectedly, says Lauri Ahtiainen who was responsible for the test at Tekniikan Maailma. However, the Tesla Model 3 that won the test was still drivable when the car showed that the battery had zero percent charge. Most electric cars limited power and heating when the charge started to decrease. " Edited January 24 by Ecocharger 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE January 24 8 hours ago, Rob Plant said: in very cold weather diesel can begin to gel and the vehicle is undriveable. The real issues with starting a diesel vehicle is water in the fuel filter freezing, but there are many! In the oilfields people leave their diesels idling day and night as they have no hope of restarting if they turn them off. I find it funny that a petroleum truck can't restart in the cold without a 600W block heater plugged in. If there are no electricity outlets around and the truck freezes up there is zero chance it can be restarted. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,191 January 24 18 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Rob, getting from A to B is not the issue here, you are trying to change the subject. You are relying on a propaganda sheet , not properly controlled studies. A public newspaper is not an engineering or science journal. I guess that is beyond your training to distinguish the two. Even your own propaganda admits that EVs have trouble in cold weather, I just quoted from your own stuff to prove that. Read again. Yes, that's a fail. "The Tesla Model 3 Long Range was the electric car that came the lowest in severe winter cold with a mileage of over 300 km. Several of the ten electric cars tested had mileages that were less than 200 km. Some cars shut down unexpectedly before the battery was empty. The Hyundai Kona Electric stopped on an uphill hill with 7 percent battery left. - The severe cold has an effect, but in the challenging weather some of the cars were still able to judge the range of the battery really well, and some stopped unexpectedly, says Lauri Ahtiainen who was responsible for the test at Tekniikan Maailma. However, the Tesla Model 3 that won the test was still drivable when the car showed that the battery had zero percent charge. Most electric cars limited power and heating when the charge started to decrease. " I am just surprised the lazy boy could actually type in: EV Tesla 3 and Finland from the references I gave(naturally the ass then claimed I gave "sod all" background of course, and he did manage to find the link I had already found from January 2024 but never bothered to copy paste.... Apparently lazy boy CAN use a search engine after all. <<SHOCK>> Just can't do math(headlines are reality in his make believe world) where Cost of wind is $33/MWh, electricity prices in the UK are subsidized, yet the average electrical price in UK is >>>2X that of the USA... Brilliant. Time to put back on ignore. Make your life easier man. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM January 24 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: I am just surprised the lazy boy could actually type in: EV Tesla 3 and Finland from the references I gave(naturally the ass then claimed I gave "sod all" background of course, and he did manage to find the link I had already found from January 2024 but never bothered to copy paste.... Apparently lazy boy CAN use a search engine after all. <<SHOCK>> Just can't do math(headlines are reality in his make believe world) where Cost of wind is $33/MWh, electricity prices in the UK are subsidized, yet the average electrical price in UK is >>>2X that of the USA... Brilliant. Time to put back on ignore. Make your life easier man. Bye bye coal! it has been posted over and over again the cost of Electricity is the result of high nat gas prices in the UK as the price of all electricity in the UK is determined by the higher cost source which happens to be nat gas generation Still thinking tunnels everywhere is the answer......??????? ha ha ha what a joke 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL January 25 (edited) EVs are now becoming a passing phase of human experience, the interest in EVs has crested and will now fall back into a well-deserved oblivion. That is fine, EVs never did make any sense for the average driver anyway. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Toyota-Chairman-Questions-EV-Market-Future.html "Chairman Akio Toyoda doubts EVs will ever reach 30% of global market share, citing electricity access issues in parts of the world. Toyota has been hesitant to fully adopt EV technology, focusing instead on hybrids and exploring hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Recent market trends show a slump in EV demand, with used Tesla prices falling and companies like Ford adjusting their EV production strategies." Edited January 25 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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